Improving Extreme Spread

[BigGame]

I run an initial pressure ladder to find pressure and then back off about a grain

This method is good for safety by finding the pressure point, but won't give you the best ES (unless by chance). I would be more interested in the results of each step as you made your way to the pressure point. Rather than simply backing off a grain, go with the charge that gave you the most consistent velocities and where slightly greater and lesser charges on either side did not change the velocity radically. This method won't give you the top velocity, but will give you better ES.

It goes without saying that each charge step up to the pressure point needs to be a group (5?), not simply one shot.

 

[Koda]

This method is good for safety by finding the pressure point, but won't give you the best ES (unless by chance). I would be more interested in the results of each step as you made your way to the pressure point. Rather than simply backing off a grain, go with the charge that gave you the most consistent velocities and where slightly greater and lesser charges on either side did not change the velocity radically. This method won't give you the top velocity, but will give you better ES.

It goes without saying that each charge step up to the pressure point needs to be a group (5?), not simply one shot.

A lot... most all Hammer loaders run an initial pressure ladder, its also what the company recommends. Before Hammers I was doing the OCW method and spent a lot on more on bullets and chasing group sizes. My only issues when I switched to Hammers was that my 280AI then was brand new and so was my brass, I did waste a box of expensive bullets chasing inconsistent velocities from the new rifle and brass but after I got some brass fireformed I started over and it just dialed in with a new pressure ladder. I do look for a "flat spot" in the velocities and if there isnt one about a grain below pressure I will do another ladder but finer increments around that.

 

[BigGame]

most all Hammer loaders run an initial pressure ladder, its also what the company recommends. Before Hammers I was doing the OCW method and spent a lot on more on bullets and chasing group sizes.

I hear what you're saying. I also read the Hammer forum and I'm familiar with the method many use. And it sounds like you have a 1 MOA load going this way, which is good for hunting. But you expressed an interest in longer ranges, which I interpret as 600-1000 yards. For accuracy at those ranges you do need to invest in a more thorough load process. I do load Hammers in all of my rifles (with the exception of my target rifle) and I have been able to improve performance by using these more traditional steps. In particular if you're focused on ES, which is heavily dependent on charge refinement.

 

[saxon]

what did you do to get your ES down to 8?

was the powder, changed from one to another, low ES but big group
higher es but smaller group.

you can talk concentricity, grain, powder, powder lot #,
bullet weight +/_ how far off,
trim length, neck tension
and on and on till the cows come home.
but what about accuracy?
does ES affect accuracy? yes / and no
does a low ES mean better accuracy? not really,

does jump affect accuracy? more then ES yes

and on and on,
30 some odd years ago i even weighed the brass, same lot, same date, same head stamp,
same trim to length on and on. got decent groups but nothing to write home about.
then i talked to a few old timers about chasing the "load"
they told me to stop wasting time,
pick a bullet
pick a coal
trim
load see what it does,
when you find a good group change powder as the only variable.
group got better or it got worse,
take the beast of all the loads and move up or down in grain to get tighter as the only variable.
then take the best load and in crease and decrease the COAL as the only variable to see if you get a better load.

and the 30-06 that never got better then a 3 " group at 200 yards became a 1/2 group at 200 yards

and didn't mater what head stamp FA17 or LC42 all shot the same after that

 

[Koda]

I hear what you're saying. I also read the Hammer forum and I'm familiar with the method many use. And it sounds like you have a 1 MOA load going this way, which is good for hunting.

Just under an inch with Nosler brass and 1.9inches at 200yds with my Nosler brass reciep....
but what I mean with them grouping the same is look at the pressure ladder target I ran playing with seating depth to get more powder/velocity. I went from 59 to 61gn with 4 of those shots sub moa. I cant recall if I pulled the other two or not but if not that groups just a tad over 1inch. Also I didnt adjust my zero for that ladder although it was to the right of the .8 group which was my zero thats about the most deviation in POI I get with Hammers regardless of seating depth or charge weight. Same experience with my other rifles.
(since then I picked up some Peterson brass and am currently starting over with that....).

In particular if you're focused on ES, which is heavily dependent on charge refinement.

agree, I will work on this but need to find the weak link in my combustion. Maybe I will do a OCW test around the results im getting with my Peterson brass and refine my charge node with that.
And yes, I think it would be fun to learn to shoot long range although not for hunting just for fun. This is my first experience with a rifle capable anyways.

 

[Koda]

was the powder, changed from one to another, low ES but big group
higher es but smaller group.

you can talk concentricity, grain, powder, powder lot #,
bullet weight +/_ how far off,
trim length, neck tension
and on and on till the cows come home.
but what about accuracy?
does ES affect accuracy? yes / and no
does a low ES mean better accuracy? not really,

does jump affect accuracy? more then ES yes

and on and on,
30 some odd years ago i even weighed the brass, same lot, same date, same head stamp,
same trim to length on and on. got decent groups but nothing to write home about.
then i talked to a few old timers about chasing the "load"
they told me to stop wasting time,
pick a bullet
pick a coal
trim
load see what it does,
when you find a good group change powder as the only variable.
group got better or it got worse,
take the beast of all the loads and move up or down in grain to get tighter as the only variable.
then take the best load and in crease and decrease the COAL as the only variable to see if you get a better load.

and the 30-06 that never got better then a 3 " group at 200 yards became a 1/2 group at 200 yards

and didn't mater what head stamp FA17 or LC42 all shot the same after that

good to know, thank you for that. Ive got a few options in powder to play with... as long as I dont need to buy a new one the stuffs expensive and Ive already splurges chasing different powders.

 

[ferret427]

One thing to keep in mind about ES is it is differences in muzzle velocity, which affects vertical differences in POI. Yes, velocity will affect BC decay, and bucking the wind, but at shorter distances, the difference is small. Generally speaking, assuming decent ammo, you won't see a lot of difference in vertical dispersion until you start stretching out your distance. Considering the ES that you are getting now, at 100 yards shooter error resulting in vertical dispersion can exceed what the difference in muzzle velocity would be (i.e. the poster above with an ES of >50 making tight groups). Stretch that out to 500, and you will see vertical impact differences.

 

[saxon]

oh in case.. no one brought it up or i missed it, are you seating the bullet and then crimping in two different steps?
or are you seat crimping all in one step?

 

[Koda]

oh in case.. no one brought it up or i missed it, are you seating the bullet and then crimping in two different steps?
or are you seat crimping all in one step?

I seat and crimp in separate steps. I use a Lee Factory Crimp die to crimp.

 

[Mono1]

I seat and crimp in separate steps. I use a Lee Factory Crimp die to crimp.

General question: how does one go about keeping neck tension consistent? No crimp at all?

 

[Koda]

General question: how does one go about keeping neck tension consistent? No crimp at all?

other than maybe, maybe annealing, I dont know a way to control neck tension consistency.

Now if your talking about controlling the amount of neck tension the only way I know of is to buy bushing dies you can set the exact tension you want.

 

[Dillon1000]

Koda, H4350 does not have the punch of IMR 4350.

 

[DizzyJ]

General question: how does one go about keeping neck tension consistent? No crimp at all?

Annealing, neck turning, mandrel or bushing size.

 

[Certaindeaf]

Did you slug the bore? It might be like tossing a hotdog down a hallway..

 

[Koda]

Did you slug the bore? It might be like tossing a hotdog down a hallway..

I cleaned it. The hotdogs slip thru them pretty quick with a clean bore. Group size isnt that great though.

 

[dangerranger60]

Ive heard that neck tension matters, I just have no way to control it unless I step up to bushing dies. Im not against that idea, I just dont know if it will improve my ES.

I was wondering if annealing would come up. I anneal after every firing as I learned I could control my shoulder bumping within +/- .002. I think annealing is the one step thats probably the most inconsistent because I dont have an annealing machine cause of their cost. I try to be consistent and follow the same exact technique but I dont know how exact each piece to piece is.... essentially if the neck shoulder area is annealed evenly for each brass. I chuck the case in a Lee trim holder in my hand drill, set the propane torch to a 1in tall blue flame, roatate the neck shoulder for 5 to 8 seconds (depending on case size) or a red glow. Quench in water to stop the annealing process from going further down the case). Ever since I experimented with annealing my shoulder bumping became way more precise.... though I dont know how much it affects velocity and ES.

I anneal basically the same, but I use templaq to gage the heat and a Metronome to keep the time in the heat the same.
One other thing I do is set the expander ball up high enough that on its downstroke it just clears the shoulder, so that as it starts back up the case neck is still held very straight in the die. This has cut my run-out numbers a lot. The only thing is you have to use a separate decapping die. I already used a separate die because I decapped before cleaning.
You can also tune your neck tension by adjusting the size of your expander ball. most all the die makers will sell balls in larger sizes and you just sand them to your own size needed. or if you know what size you need they will make them to fit your needs. DR

 

[Koda]

You can also tune your neck tension by adjusting the size of your expander ball. most all the die makers will sell balls in larger sizes and you just sand them to your own size needed. or if you know what size you need they will make them to fit your needs. DR

Ive thought about this or bushing dies, but Im not certain how much to go or see how a different neck tension would affect ES?
The average dies I use give about .002" neck tension. My guess is I might get more velocity if I went with .003 or .004", but Im not certain how this affects ES. I also wonder if improving ES is learning to work with what you have vs trying different components heuristically.

My impression of handloading is its as much trail and error as it is experience in getting what you want out of it.