Have you ever seen such poor rifling?

[Member 38805]

Fire lapping can do much to improve those chatter marks from the rifling in your bore. Just follow the instructions carefully, and don't overdo it either! Too much of a good thing applies here, and I've seen guys shoot so many with lapping compound that they wore their bore out before they realized it.
Those chatter marks appear to be either not enough cutting fluid, or pushing the tool too fast. But it can be saved with proper lapping. In the old days gunsmiths would spend all day hand lapping bores to get them to be extremely smooth. But thy'd probably have tossed a barrel that bad vs. take all the time required to hand lap it smooth.

 

[DizzyJ]

This was typical for Marlin levers of that time period! A Marlin employee posted an excellent writeup on another forum years ago detailing the steps needed to product a functional barrel. Marlin skipped some of those steps to reduce cost.

What you see here is the results of only drilling the barrel, the next step of removing the ruff cuts did not happen. Most likely even the next step of stress relief was not done! After that one and only first drilling the barrel was button rifled.

If the owner of that Marlin had pushed a very tight patch through the barrel, the owner also would of noticed loose & tight spots in the bore as the tight patch moved through the barrel. Without stress relief of the barrel, metal tends to move back from where it was before the button rifling step.

With that said; If the barrel ain't right - nuth'in is right. In this case it is hard to make a silk purse from a sow's ear. Best outcome is to hand lap the bore very slowly. Attempt to even out the loose & tight spots. Pay very close to the bore diameter by using a micrometer and check the lead lap's diameter.

The loose & tights spots will be located where the sights are attached, roll markings, dove tail cuts, and surprisingly where the barrel is screwed into the receiver. Don't ask me how I know.

Foreverlost,

This is really good info.

 

[Sawtooth58]

This is really good info.

I must be extremely lucky…along with the 1000's of other guys I hear about that have great luck with Marlins. I have one…or two in every caliber. They are all shooters. There's a reason the Marlin that could be had for $500 a couple short years ago are fetching over twice that much today. They're highly collectible, fun as hell to shoot and will bring meat home for the table. Not to mention, when I'm hiking in Grizzly Bear country….I feel much much more comfortable carrying my 45-70 or 450. Like an old boy I met this summer that grew up on the edge of the Beartooth Wilderness in Montana said to me - When a 400+ grain, hard cast bullet hits a bear …bubblegum flies off of them. HA!! and that's a word for word quote from a guy that's had (17) seventeen people he knows get mauled by a "grumpy" bear, as he puts it.

 

[Sawtooth58]

…Except for the "Bubblegum" that this forum likes to switch your word to.

 

[Sbarton]

wow, nice photos - what did you use to capture this fine detail and angle?

It's a cheep bore scope from Amazon! It's been very useful since I started shooting cast. A barrel can look fine peeping down the bore, but you'll find all kinds of stuff with the scope.

 

[Sbarton]

Fire lapping can do much to improve those chatter marks from the rifling in your bore. Just follow the instructions carefully, and don't overdo it either! Too much of a good thing applies here, and I've seen guys shoot so many with lapping compound that they wore their bore out before they realized it.
Those chatter marks appear to be either not enough cutting fluid, or pushing the tool too fast. But it can be saved with proper lapping. In the old days gunsmiths would spend all day hand lapping bores to get them to be extremely smooth. But thy'd probably have tossed a barrel that bad vs. take all the time required to hand lap it smooth.

I imagine if i just knock the sharp edges off it'll foul less. I figure if I take all the chatter out, I'll end up with a .45!

 

[Sbarton]

I bet if you had some 240gr .431 JSP's that Everglades has "occasionally" it would shoot decent groups. Changed my 94 to a moa rifle. It was shooting 5"
My 6" Anaconda likes the much better than a .429 as well

I had a mold from acurate on order, but i put it on hold. I want to get it shooting jacketed into a decent group first.

 

[Sbarton]

I got a couple ok groups today with the mag tube, forend, and barrel band off the gun.
Funny thing, it shot 8" lower with all the parts off than it did before.
Sorry, no target pics, but I had 3"-4" 50y groups with jacketed, which is better. So something is binding. The forend is pretty tight to the barrel, so I'll relieve that a bit.

 

[Certaindeaf]

I got a couple ok groups today with the mag tube, forend, and barrel band off the gun.
Funny thing, it shot 8" lower with all the parts off than it did before.
Sorry, no target pics, but I had 3"-4" 50y groups with jacketed, which is better. So something is binding. The forend is pretty tight to the barrel, so I'll relieve that a bit.

If the bore slugs to .431 I'm not surprised jacketed .429's don't shoot well.

 

[CLT65]

I've been told that .431" was spec for these rifles. I've never really understood why.

It's not surprising at all that it would shoot to a dramatically different point of aim with the mag tube and forend off. Mine did too. All the stresses on the barrel really change things.

 

[Certaindeaf]

I've been told that .431" was spec for these rifles. I've never really understood why.

It's not surprising at all that it would shoot to a dramatically different point of aim with the mag tube and forend off. Mine did too. All the stresses on the barrel really change things.

Well they did it wrong. Jacketed bullets are .429.
Also, a borescope won't tell you if or why, necessarily, a gun won't shoot.
Benchrest shooters never clean their copper lumped, crazed steel, throats gone barrels if it shoots.

 

[Foreverlost]

Guessing is seldom a good place to start. Bore diameter is a must data input. If one doesn't have a casting mold & pure lead get some round balls for those black powder guns or visit a fishing store and get a soft round sinker. Push that puppy through the bore. Two things will be learned; the bore diameter of the tightest spot is #1. Loose and tight spots in the bore will be felt, if there is #2.

Pre 1960's we shooters had a good chance to purchase a shooter. The rifling was cut with a broach. With a little luck a craftsman even hand lapped the barrel during assembly of that rifle. Just about any factory ammo did just fine. Few shooters even bothered to consider handloading.

Tuff beans, times changed. Button rifling can be good, but few manufacturers use all the steps. Beans counters and investors want returns on their investment & stocks.

Would be interesting to hear how the custom barrel makers of today produce bench rest barrels. My time period, finished broach cut barrels were air gauged and priced accordingly. Straightest most consistence bores required a deep wallet.

You guys & gals have fun.

Foreverlost,

 

[Certaindeaf]

Guessing is seldom a good place to start. Bore diameter is a must data input. If one doesn't have a casting mold & pure lead get some round balls for those black powder guns or visit a fishing store and get a soft round sinker. Push that puppy through the bore. Two things will be learned; the bore diameter of the tightest spot is #1. Loose and tight spots in the bore will be felt, if there is #2.

Pre 1960's we shooters had a good chance to purchase a shooter. The rifling was cut with a broach. With a little luck a craftsman even hand lapped the barrel during assembly of that rifle. Just about any factory ammo did just fine. Few shooters even bothered to consider handloading.

Tuff beans, times changed. Button rifling can be good, but few manufacturers use all the steps. Beans counters and investors want returns on their investment & stocks.

Would be interesting to hear how the custom barrel makers of today produce bench rest barrels. My time period, finished broach cut barrels were air gauged and priced accordingly. Straightest most consistence bores required a deep wallet.

You guys & gals have fun.

Foreverlost,

Most benchrest guns are button rifled.

 

[CLT65]

Well they did it wrong. Jacketed bullets are .429.

Believe me, I'm not disagreeing with you. I've asked the same question before, back when I was trying to get mine to shoot well. I went through pretty much the same thing that the OP is going through, and asked all the same questions. I've read in several places that spec for .44 Mag rifle barrels in .431". I'm sure there must be some logical reason for it, but it doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

The answers I kept getting back then were:
1. Get bigger bullets, anywhere from .431" to .433"
2. Check for binding with the mag tube and forearm
3. Polish the bore

The roll-punch dents in mine are so bad that I never would have been able to polish them out. The only way to get rid of them would be to miniaturize myself and crawl in there with an angle grinder. I polished mine for a while, but I don't think I accomplished much. I didn't get really aggressive because I didn't want to do more harm than good.

I know there are some very accurate level-action rifles out there, but to be honest I've never shot one. There's so much going on with a lever gun, what with the magazine and forearm attached to the barrel, and the action itself being a bit "springy", that it's hard to get true precision out of one. Just my opinion. I've often heard of the mythical 1moa lever-gun, but they've always escaped me.

Mind you, I'm not doubting that they exist. There are a heck of a lot of folks out there who are far better shots and gunsmiths than I'll ever be, who can make guns do things that I can barely imagine. Just because I can't do something, doesn't mean I'm not impressed by those who can.

Added- this thread has inspired me to dig out the old Model 1894 and take it with me to the range the next time I go. It's been so long that I barely remember exactly how it shot when I was done tinkering with it. I also have some good 240gr XTP loads that I need to try in it.

 

[Sbarton]

I have some xtp bullets on the way. Hope those shoot OK, they're supposed to be .430.
I relieved the barrel inletting on the forearm and got everything put back together. Nothing feels like it's impinging and it all seems passive, I'll see where it shoots next weekend.

Thanks everyone, lots of good input!

 

[CLT65]

If you want some .4315" cast/powder-coated/gas-check 429244 bullets to try in it, I'd give you a handful. I've actually used up all I had made, but have been meaning to cast some more and it wouldn't take very long.

I took my Marlin out of the safe today and mounted a Leupold scope on it. It will probably be next Friday before I can get out there again. I've been trying to remember exactly where I landed for accuracy with it. I do remember a couple 2" 100 yard groups but I also remember consistently getting flyers that made the average group a lot worse. The frustrating part of that is that tight groups with flyers shows promise, with something in the works that's just not right.

This rifle makes me think of my dad, and remember when he bought it all those years ago. He's been gone for over a year now.

 

[Rick4570]

the marlin micro groove rifling was not intended to shoot lead bullets...why you say.....because the micro groove rifling is very shallow so that when one shoots lead through it the lead has to be cast real hard and sized at least 1 thousand over the bore diameter other wise the barrel will lead like crazy because of stripping down the bore. the micro groove barrel has 12 lands and grooves and are very shallow. before you fire lap that barrel and make the lands and grooves even more shallow than they are, you should cast some bullets using linotype or other metals to give you a harder bullet and being that you said the bore is .431 your bullets should be sized to either .432 or .433. if they are too small or too soft then they will lead like crazy. the best stuff i found to removing lead is Kroil. you can either use it straight from the can or do a 50-50 mix with your bore cleaner HTH
Rick

 

[CLT65]

For kicks, I might just cast a few out of pure linotype just to see if it makes a difference. I normally don't cast anything from pure linotype, seems like a waste of "precious metal", but I'll sacrifice a few ounces in the name of science.

 

[Certaindeaf]

Marlin's Microgroove Barrels - Glen E. Fryxell

From the pages of The IHMSA News, Shooting sports, hand gun, ammo, cartridges, xp 100, reloading, firearm, cast bullet, bullet casting and more information articles

www.lasc.us

 

[Nosferatu]

Drill that sucker out and call it a smoothbore. Nobody needs that swirly stuff in there anyway!