Had a gun debate today after Obamas latest comment about gun control.

[CasualShooter]

Well, I did post the quote as I heard it and while your qoute is different from the quote that I posted my interpretation may not be incorrect. We all know that leaders of the world have large staffs of people writting speechs for them to sway the opinion of their voters. Carefully crafting these words they often times have a hidden or double meaning.with his remarkes it is clear as a bell that he is saying that "criminals" are NOT getting AK-47s from the military so ot leads the listener to make the assumption that the weapons are coming from the public. In making this comment he is planting a seed in the minds of average America that assault weapons are ONLY coming from gun stores,guns shows or stolen from people who shouldnt have them in the first place.Thus, we are left with the image in our minds that only paranoid gun fanatics would own such a terrible thing. You sometimws need to read between the lines to grasp the full content of the messages of what is presented to you.

Russianfist, You made assumptions.
You made assumptions based on a bogus quote.
You made assumptions based on a bogus quote by "reading between the lines".
You made assumptions based on a bogus quote by "reading between the lines" for the hidden and double meanings.

Amazingly enough, the conclusion you arrived at (to include mental imagery) meshes perfectly with your political opinions.


I encourage any of the younger members of this forum to purge these kind of habits from your intellectual skillset. If you buy into this sort of dishonest/faulty logic you will become vulnerable to any snake oil salesman who comes along and tells what you would like to hear.

 

[Flyingswords]

Apparently there are alot of ppl (pro 2A'ers and their supporters) who keep an open mind towards firearms, their (practical, hunting, defensive) purposes to themselves and those ppl around them. Then you have those anti 2A'ers, who try to brainwash ppl looking to get into procuring their very first firearm (looking to get one by reading up on various calibers, recoil, stuff like that) and trying to get them to be anti gun. Last you have the Reporters who fan the anti gunners flame over the pro gunners cornfield of sorts who do this by reporting in a way that makes the public see things in a negative way.

 

[deen_ad]

Apparently there are alot of ppl (pro 2A'ers and their supporters) who keep an open mind towards firearms, their (practical, hunting, defensive) purposes to themselves and those ppl around them. Then you have those anti 2A'ers, who try to brainwash ppl looking to get into procuring their very first firearm (looking to get one by reading up on various calibers, recoil, stuff like that) and trying to get them to be anti gun. Last you have the Reporters who fan the anti gunners flame over the pro gunners cornfield of sorts who do this by reporting in a way that makes the public see things in a negative way.

Then you have the lamestream media that tries very hard NOT to report the truth about any firearm!!

 

[Russianfist]

Russianfist, You made assumptions.
You made assumptions based on a bogus quote.
You made assumptions based on a bogus quote by "reading between the lines".
You made assumptions based on a bogus quote by "reading between the lines" for the hidden and double meanings.

Amazingly enough, the conclusion you arrived at (to include mental imagery) meshes perfectly with your political opinions.


I encourage any of the younger members of this forum to purge these kind of habits from your intellectual skillset. If you buy into this sort of dishonest/faulty logic you will become vulnerable to any snake oil salesman who comes along and tells what you would like to hear.

Interesting that you seem to know everything about me,point your finger at me and chime to the the youngsters and newbs "SEE,LOOK AT HIM....HE'S FLAWED AND WILL CORUPT YOU" when you dont know me personally. I believe this same thing happened to a certain carpenter in Jerusalem a few thousand years ago. You say my opinion is bogus, PROVE IT!!! You also dont know me or anything about me other than what I post on this board so for you to not only make up your mind,but to shout out that I am someone to avoid or my opinion is poison makes your attitude wreckless at best. You have less than 30 posts in here
Son. Make some friends before you make enemies...

 

[G1GRANDEUR]

At this point he will say anything to make people vote him again. He is taking an advantage of this situation.

 

[mosinguy]

i dont care what kind of bpv he was wearing you get hit wearing one and you will feel it ie; a baseball bat full swing hitting you,it will stun and distract you even if it is just a slightly off shot and it snags your bpv most calibers will yank you around with enough force to distract you and a bullet proof mask only absorbs the bullet your head absorbs the bone crushing force and if it was a flack jacket well at the range most shots would have been fired unless it was a very weak caliber it would have penetrated. i would have got my family to safe cover then engaged the threat as i have been trained to do, find cover, find target , make neccesary moves to get into a safe shooting area, observe again then decide if you can take safe shots.

 

[davemata]

Interesting that you seem to know everything about me,point your finger at me and chime to the the youngsters and newbs "SEE,LOOK AT HIM....HE'S FLAWED AND WILL CORUPT YOU" when you dont know me personally. I believe this same thing happened to a certain carpenter in Jerusalem a few thousand years ago. You say my opinion is bogus, PROVE IT!!! You also dont know me or anything about me other than what I post on this board so for you to not only make up your mind,but to shout out that I am someone to avoid or my opinion is poison makes your attitude wreckless at best. You have less than 30 posts in here
Son. Make some friends before you make enemies...

Heh, this comment is awesome. Even brings in jewish carpenters. It makes me think of this clip:

 

[Russianfist]

That is kinda funny actually

 

[davemata]

YOU DON'T KNOW ME!

 

[Russianfist]

YOU DON'T KNOW ME!

Yeah Dave....we got it....its funny.

 

[davemata]

yeah, and a damn shame to see on a gun forum, because "you don't know me" arguments are 4chan material.

 

[Russianfist]

yeah, and a damn shame to see on a gun forum, because "you don't know me" arguments are 4chan material.

Well,I regret going that route and feeding a troll and reacted poorly to what I saw was a personal attack. I gotta remember to not feed trolls.

I also know that I "misquoted" the POTUS but this is the conclusion that "I" personally came too. If a person wishes to believe the words told to them by their leaders at face value and not consider its deeper content or impact of the future then let them be SHEEP!!! A bunch of people believed every word Hitler said too.....look what happened to them!

(Oh,don't freak out over me mentioning Hitler in a comment about Obama....it's just a metaphor guys,nothing more)

 

[davemata]

There can be a lot of ways to interpret what was said. Sometimes a duck is just a duck, and sometimes it isn't.

Time will tell though, eh?

 

[tac]

No matter how you try to explain it, those who are against people owning guns of any kind will always have a closed mind. They don't get it, it is not the guns that are the problem, but they them selves are afraid of the people who own them.

This.

I met the present mrs tac almost 41 years ago at a bow and gun club, where we both bowed and shot.
At one time, she was the local county's best woman pistol shot, but gave up when we lost our cartridge-firing guns in GB back in 1998. No interest in BP, sadly, or in the long-barrelled revolvers and pistols that we can still have here.

Apropos the thread subject, we are very lucky, both being ex-military, in that we don't have many friends or acquaintances who are not shooters of one kind or another, and those who don't shoot who know that I'm a shooter don't give a hoot.

Here in yUK shooting is not a matter for left and right politics - 99% of ALL politicians are agin it. Sadly for them, one of THE most supportive shooters in the UK is the head of state. Elizabeth II is a VERY fine wing shot, and her husband is the royal patron head of the British NRA.

tac

 

[Darkker]

A true 5.56 should have more energy than a .223 as the 5.56 is loaded to higher pressures with the case holding slightly less powder. They are not interchangeable as some people think. There are a few true .223's out there (like the Mini-14 target) that specifically shouldn't shoot a 5.56, however most are chambered so they can shoot both.

If we are getting mis-conceptions out of the way, you are mistaken.

Forget the "pressures" arguement, it is at the very best, semantics.
SAMMI pressure testing is done mid-way on the cartridge body whereas the military pressure tests are done at the case mouth. If 5.56 NATO and 223 Rem cartridges were tested exactly the same, there wouldn't be a lick of difference in chamber pressure.

The brass is the same. Military brass is not spec'd smaller capacity, I don't care what your grandfather's favorite gun writer told you. Get your scales and dopper out. Lapua has the smallest capacity; LC, Fed, and WW are within .1 of each other. With the exception of Lapua(or specific purpose built match stuff) any capacity differences are simply manufacturing tollerances. manufacturers don't build barrels, NOR recievers that are heat treated any less "because it is a 223"; They are all the same.

The Chamber is Technically different in the leade.
Now, one must wonder "WHY" would you have a longer lead for a given bullet, if the 223's are fine for the same bullet?? Because of potential for SLAP, saboted, etc. loadings. Things that will require a much longer chamber, and an opportunity to change from original loading, WITHOUT having to re-barrel everything.

There is something close to eleventy-million surplus rounds shot by the private sector each year. NO they are NOT all shot through NATO chambered rifles. Do you routinely hear about folks getting blown-up, buildings melting, and goats running because of it? No.

So CAN you shoot it? Sure. SHOULD you shoot it? That is up to YOU and YOUR rifle. YOU have a SAAMI chamber, the ammo was built for a NATO chamber.
If you don't have an odd-ball cartridge(tracer, slap, etc), just standard ball ammo; it chambers and extracts perfectly fine, then the odds are you have yourself some inexpensive(hopefully) plinking ammo.

Personally I have run 5 battle packs of NATO ammo through my 308. Somewhere in the 5-6 battle packs of SS-109 through a few different SAAMI bolt guns.

 

[Robo]

I first became interested in firearms in 1944, as a young boy in Nazi occupied Arctic Norway. A German soldier would visit our house during the cold winter days and sit by our kitchen stove to warm himself. He told my father that his wife and children had been killed in a bombing raid in Hamburg, Germany. The soldier would unload his Mauser rifle and I would sit on the floor and work the action and admire the weapon. After the war, a member of the Norwegian underground let me handle his Astra pistol and I guess I became hooked on guns.

After we immigrated to the US in I joined the Airforce in the late fifties and obtained several guns from a local gun shop and 2 military surplus rifles mail order. At that time it was perfectly legal to order firearms through the mail with no questions asked. I remember an ad from Kleins sporting goods in Chicago which avertised a 30mm anti tank rifle for $99, and ammo for $1.00 each.

I guess my point is this, back in those days, there were few restrictions on buying and owning firearms and yet compared to today, gun violence was amost non existent. I'm rather patient with anti gunners and treat them with respect for their opinions, but I bring out these points and they have no clear answer for this obvious dilemma. If it's not the guns that cause this violence, could it possibly be a reflection on our society, and people themselves. Could it be that it's not the guns that kill and maim people, but psycotic, criminal, evil and irresponsible people that do.

 

[Thebastidge]

Best I can tell from news reports, the Aurora shooter had on riot gear, not body armor. Essentially soccer shin guards and football pads, gussied up in a nce storm trooper look. He surrendered meekly to police. If anybody had shot back, he almost certainly would have fled.

Two cans of CS gas. In a theater for one of the big movies of the year. Everybody in there has eye adjusted to the dark. The shooter is standing up in front of the screen, guns literally blazing in the dark. I don't think I would have had a problem identifying the target retty quickly. Would I have hit him? Would I have killed him? Maybe not. But it probably wouldn't have been necessary. If another CHL holder had been in the theater, how would they have known who the bad guy was? For the same reasons I would have been able to identify him, and because once the BG fled, I would stop.

I really don't think it's as complicated as people are making it out to be. I have never been in a stand-up gunfight, but I have been under fire. It's not nearly as difficult to keep your head as the liberal would have us believe. As some have popinted out, a police officer would have a duty to fire back. Nobody is saying a police officer would have been foolish to return fire- but cops aren't magically better at this than other people because of a uniform. Many civilians have the temperament and even the training to be effective under fire.

Final point. We all hav a responsibility to be aware of where our rounds are landing no matter what. But if a cop opened fire on the perp and accidentally hit a bystander inthis situation, it would be sad, but not murder. If one bystander got hit and the dozen killed and 58 wounded had been reduced to the perp and the bystander, it would still be a win for the good guys. As it is, 12 people were murdered, that's an active moral act of evil, rather than an accident.

This maniac could have gone into that theater with a cheap-*** 440 stainless steel replica samurai sword and killed a dozen people. (A young man in China just went on a knife spree and killed 8). The crowd was mentally and physically unprepared to protect themselves. I am not blaming the victims, but ONE prepared person could have stopped it sooner, and a prepared population would have deterred the attack from ever happening. He went into a liberabl, anti-gun community, to an anti-gun establishment, posted with rules about having no guns on premise to commit his insane act of murder. He wasn't looking for a fight. Even insane people react to incentives, they just don't always successfully predict the results. He knew he was unlikely to meet any gunfire, and that has to have been a part of his clearly long-planned vision.

 

[Stomper]

If we are getting mis-conceptions out of the way, you are mistaken.

Forget the "pressures" arguement, it is at the very best, semantics.
SAMMI pressure testing is done mid-way on the cartridge body whereas the military pressure tests are done at the case mouth. If 5.56 NATO and 223 Rem cartridges were tested exactly the same, there wouldn't be a lick of difference in chamber pressure.

The brass is the same. Military brass is not spec'd smaller capacity, I don't care what your grandfather's favorite gun writer told you. Get your scales and dopper out. Lapua has the smallest capacity; LC, Fed, and WW are within .1 of each other. With the exception of Lapua(or specific purpose built match stuff) any capacity differences are simply manufacturing tollerances. manufacturers don't build barrels, NOR recievers that are heat treated any less "because it is a 223"; They are all the same.

The Chamber is Technically different in the leade.
Now, one must wonder "WHY" would you have a longer lead for a given bullet, if the 223's are fine for the same bullet?? Because of potential for SLAP, saboted, etc. loadings. Things that will require a much longer chamber, and an opportunity to change from original loading, WITHOUT having to re-barrel everything.

There is something close to eleventy-million surplus rounds shot by the private sector each year. NO they are NOT all shot through NATO chambered rifles. Do you routinely hear about folks getting blown-up, buildings melting, and goats running because of it? No.

So CAN you shoot it? Sure. SHOULD you shoot it? That is up to YOU and YOUR rifle. YOU have a SAAMI chamber, the ammo was built for a NATO chamber.
If you don't have an odd-ball cartridge(tracer, slap, etc), just standard ball ammo; it chambers and extracts perfectly fine, then the odds are you have yourself some inexpensive(hopefully) plinking ammo.

Personally I have run 5 battle packs of NATO ammo through my 308. Somewhere in the 5-6 battle packs of SS-109 through a few different SAAMI bolt guns.

You had a 5.56 NATO round blow up in your face that killed you... You just don't know it yet.

 

[Stomper]

Best I can tell from news reports, the Aurora shooter had on riot gear, not body armor. Essentially soccer shin guards and football pads, gussied up in a nce storm trooper look. He surrendered meekly to police. If anybody had shot back, he almost certainly would have fled.

Two cans of CS gas. In a theater for one of the big movies of the year. Everybody in there has eye adjusted to the dark. The shooter is standing up in front of the screen, guns literally blazing in the dark. I don't think I would have had a problem identifying the target retty quickly. Would I have hit him? Would I have killed him? Maybe not. But it probably wouldn't have been necessary. If another CHL holder had been in the theater, how would they have known who the bad guy was? For the same reasons I would have been able to identify him, and because once the BG fled, I would stop.

I really don't think it's as complicated as people are making it out to be. I have never been in a stand-up gunfight, but I have been under fire. It's not nearly as difficult to keep your head as the liberal would have us believe. As some have popinted out, a police officer would have a duty to fire back. Nobody is saying a police officer would have been foolish to return fire- but cops aren't magically better at this than other people because of a uniform. Many civilians have the temperament and even the training to be effective under fire.

Final point. We all hav a responsibility to be aware of where our rounds are landing no matter what. But if a cop opened fire on the perp and accidentally hit a bystander inthis situation, it would be sad, but not murder. If one bystander got hit and the dozen killed and 58 wounded had been reduced to the perp and the bystander, it would still be a win for the good guys. As it is, 12 people were murdered, that's an active moral act of evil, rather than an accident.

This maniac could have gone into that theater with a cheap-*** 440 stainless steel replica samurai sword and killed a dozen people. (A young man in China just went on a knife spree and killed 8). The crowd was mentally and physically unprepared to protect themselves. I am not blaming the victims, but ONE prepared person could have stopped it sooner, and a prepared population would have deterred the attack from ever happening. He went into a liberal, anti-gun community, to an anti-gun establishment, posted with rules about having no guns on premise to commit his insane act of murder. He wasn't looking for a fight. Even insane people react to incentives, they just don't always successfully predict the results. He knew he was unlikely to meet any gunfire, and that has to have been a part of his clearly long-planned vision.

This!

 

[davemata]

You had a 5.56 NATO round blow up in your face that killed you... You just don't know it yet.

Have a cite for this, or is it just sensationalism covered with the implication of "safety"?

I've not read anything recent where a properly maintained rifle blew up from 5.56 NATO.