National Gun-Control Median?

[Jcon268]

Moving attention away from the AR platform needs a single, concise counter argument that would make sense to the public. People have been saying its the mentally ill over and over again. Without a solution, saying its the fault of the mentally ill isn't helping from an argumentative standpoint. What's needed is input from the mental health community as a whole and I don't see that happening.

The fact is that AR15s are almost never used in homicides....EXCEPT school shootings. Which still accounts for a VERY small percentage of gun deaths. It's about a psychological connection being made between the big scary black rifle and innocent children. I'll admit, they are good at this. They know how to push the agenda. We all love kids and want them protected. Most people don't blink when they hear of a person getting killed in a bad neighborhood. They shudder when they hear of an innocent kid dying. It doesn't change the fact that the deadliest school shooting was done with handguns. And most homicides are not done with an AR15. They are all over the place with their arguments.

 

[Jcon268]

I've tried that argument to no avail.. people already have too many visions in their head of a shooter coming in a room full of kids with an AR15. They now hate that gun. An inanimate object has become the recipient of intense scorn.

 

[ma96782]

Isn't it always about the details?

+++++++++

Know about the history of NAZI Gun Laws and how America's Gun Laws (1968) were modeled after them? BTW.....both started with "good intentions."

Aloha, Mark

 

[ma96782]

I've tried that argument to no avail.. people already have too many visions in their head of a shooter coming in a room full of kids with an AR15. They now hate that gun. An inanimate object has become the recipient of intense scorn.

If your were a teacher and had a weapon (say a handgun that you have retrieved). So, you're locked in that room along with your students. But, the gunman breaks down the door and is coming through the door way........

1) Do you call 911, again?
or
2) Do you use that weapon to defend yourself and the students?

Oh wait.....schools are Gun Free Zones.

++++++++++

Why all the hate?



Guns/Weapons are inanimate objects. They, don't get up by themselves, get loaded and go out shooting. Thus, a gun cannot have the moral designation of being "good" or "bad". It's the PERSON.

Aloha, Mark

 

[Andy54Hawken]

Work on fixing / enforcing the current , in place laws and regulations...
Take look at the current laws and regulations and see just which ones are actually working or doing what they are supposed to do and get rid of the ones that aren't working...

Finding out as many common causes / issues / problems / lifestyle conditions of shootings as possible...
Work on a solution to the cause of the problem , not the item used...

Take a look at just how , why and when attitudes towards guns and guns owners have shifted from a positive to a negative view...
Seeing what if any , social media , social "norms" or medical issues are playing a part in violence...
Check to see if any of the social media , norms or medical issues are in the list of common causes listed in the above paragraph...
And again ...work on a solution to the cause , not the item used...

It seems to me that we have lots of gun laws and restrictions already in place...if they worked , we wouldn't be having this discussion...So why continue to do what is not working to" fix " the problem?

Of course the goal of many anti gun people is to keep firearms out of the hands of all folks...not "safety" pe se...with this class of anti gun people there is no chance of median or compromise.
Andy

 

[slimmer13]

All the state's have to do for a non invasive UBC is put a firearms endorsement on your DL. Become prohibited, it gets punched.

 

[Greenbug]

All the state's have to do for a non invasive UBC is put a firearms endorsement on your DL. Become prohibited, it gets punched.

Simple, Effective, I like it!

 

[etrain16]

The problem is that there is nothing enforcing/preventing prohibited persons from transferring firearms in a private sale. Then what about a law that makes it a requirement to establish the legality of the person to trade said firearm and removing the requirement to provide make model and serial number?



We want to keep our right to keep and bear arms. The opposition wants guns kept from people who shouldn't have them. Yes they want more, but we can both agree that we don't want wack jobs and violent felons possessing firearms. It shouldn't be difficult to make that happen.

Every time I hear the 'prevent prohibited people' from buying guns, whether through an FFL or private sale, the first thing that always comes to mind is - why are they on the street in the first place? We have convicted, violent felons walking the streets and for some reason it's OUR problem that they can get access to guns? Same thing with dangerously mentally ill people - why the hell are they on the streets? Because we have a society that thinks it's too harsh to lock up the most violent and mentally ill in our society. I say, that's causing the rest of us a lot of pain.

There isn't a single law or compromise that will prevent determined bad guys from getting guns. If they are that bad, I guarantee it's not Joe Gunowner that's selling them that gun - it's another damn criminal. And do you think there is any way for LE to actually enforce a ban on private sales? Hell, they can't even enforce SB941 or I-594 - they freely admit they don't have the resources, which means neither law is proactive - it's reactive - something they can charge you with after the fact.

The government is the biggest problem here. There are plenty of laws already on the books and I'm not interested in adding any more, with one exception - I'd like to see government agencies held accountable, including prosecution of employees, when their gross negligence leads to these kinds of events. Damn, the Texas church shooting happened when a guy with 2 distinct disqualifiers was still able to legally buy a gun at a gun shop because the Air Force and another agency failed to report his convictions to the Feds. And somehow another law is supposed to help? How? If they can't do their jobs now, how the hell are they going to enforce even more laws? And add this - criminals don't follow laws - that's why they're criminals. Laws against murder don't stop murder. Laws against rape don't stop rape. Laws against theft don't stop theft. What does? Punishment. Anyone thinking of doing these things needs to know that punishment will be swift and severe - make it really damn unpleasant on them - for life, if necessary. Laws - it's a joke to think laws will stop anyone with criminal intent.

So what do I want? National concealed carry reciprocity. The hearing protection act. Kill the NFA for suppressors, SBR's, etc. If BGC's are going to be required for purchases, make them free instead of a tax on people that want to sell their personal property. No registry allowed - registration can never stop a crime anyway, so they don't need it. Fix NICS by punishing/prosecuting agency employees that fail to do their jobs in a way that allows known prohibited persons to get guns. Lock up known violent offenders and dangerously mentally ill people.

Those are my suggestions. Until they implement them all, I'm not interested in anything else.

 

[DB is Here]

1) Parkland School District had an agreement with the County not to "enforce" certain crimes.
2) FBI has two warnings several months in advance and yet did nothing.
3) Broward County by policy or cowardice sat outside as the shooting occurred.

If this wasn't a cocktail for disaster, I don't know what is...

The Media has jumped on the tool (AR-15) as the problem, when the real problem is "Lack of Accountability"

 

[DB is Here]

The government is the biggest problem here. There are plenty of laws already on the books and I'm not interested in adding any more, with one exception - I'd like to see government agencies held accountable, including prosecution of employees, when their gross negligence leads to these kinds of events.

Where's the like x100 button?

 

[ma96782]

All the state's have to do for a non invasive UBC is put a firearms endorsement on your DL. Become prohibited, it gets punched.

Wow.....you just made things easier for the Govt., to collect YOU.

++++++++++++

THEY won't need this anymore.



"May I see your DL/ID card?"

Aloha, Mark

 

[slimmer13]

Wow.....you just made things easier for the Govt., to collect YOU.

++++++++++++

THEY won't need this anymore.

View attachment 437457

"May I see your DL/ID card?"

Aloha, Mark

Not following. You don't already have a DL?

Back in the day when I commonly did FTF transfers, I still had a quick peek at a DL at the least to ensure I wasn't giving a gun to a resident of another state. If someone didn't have a DL or state issued ID, I would never sell them a gun. How would marking prohibited persons rather than having to prove your not, make it easier for the government to round you up?

 

[bbbass]

"Common Sense" reforms???

1. Repeal GCA
2. Reverse Roe v Wade
3. Universal carry with no permits
4. Universal "Stand Your Ground"
5. Mandatory firearms training
6. Swiss-style weapon requirement

 

[ma96782]

All the state's have to do for a non invasive UBC is put a firearms endorsement on your DL. Become prohibited, it gets punched.

DL = Driver's Lic
ID = Any ID that can says you are a gun owner (including FOID = Firearm Owner Identity Card)

I am not opposed to showing my ID or DL to the FFL who is conducting a BGC on me in order to identify me as who I say I am.

I am opposed.......to a state (or Fed Govt) law that will put a "special stamp" on my DL or ID (or require a FOID = Firearms Owner ID) to identify me as a gun owner. Then say, if I were to become prohibited.....the stamp would be "punched out."

IMHO, the Govt. does not need to keep records (nor, should they be keeping records) of which guns I own (registration) and/or having a list of gun owners.*

Course, if you think that the Govt. should register guns and gun owners**.....then we'll agree to disagree.

*FYI....the LEFT has at times used FOIA (Freedom Of Information Act) to discover gun owners, in order to target them. Then, some places just present that sort of information on a silver platter.
Public access to firearm registry lists - Ballotpedia

**".....German firearm laws and hysteria created against Jewish firearm owners played a major role in laying the groundwork for the eradication of German Jewry in the Holocaust. Disarming political opponents was a categorical imperative of the Nazi regime. The Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution declares: "A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed." This right, which reflects a universal and historical power of the people in a republic to resist tyranny, was not recognized in the German Reich.

This article addresses German firearms laws and Nazi policies and practices to disarm German citizens, particularly political opponents and Jews. It begins with an account of post-World War I chaos, which led to the enactment in 1928 by the liberal Weimar republic of Germany's first comprehensive gun control law. Next, the Nazi seizure of power in 1933 was consolidated by massive searches and seizures of firearms from political opponents, who were invariably described as "communists." After five years of repression and eradication of dissidents, Hitler signed a new gun control law in 1938, which benefitted Nazi party members and entities, but denied firearm ownership to enemies of the state. Later that year, in Kristallnacht (the Night of the Broken Glass), in one fell swoop, the Nazi regime disarmed Germany's Jews. Without any ability to defend themselves, the Jewish population could easily be sent to concentration camps for the Final Solution. After World War II began, Nazi authorities continued to register and mistrust civilian firearm owners, and German resistence to the Nazi regime was unsuccessful."

Taken from: http://stephenhalbrook.com/article-nazilaw.pdf


Aloha, Mark

 

[slimmer13]

DL = Driver's Lic
ID = Any ID that can says you are a gun owner (including FOID = Firearm Owner Identity Card)

I am not opposed to showing my ID or DL to the FFL who is conducting a BGC on me in order to identify me as who I say I am.

I am opposed.......to a state (or Fed Govt) law that will put an "stamp" on my DL or ID (or require a FOID = Firearms Owner ID) to identify me as a gun owner. Then say, if I were to become prohibited.....the stamp would be "punched out" (or card voided).

IMHO, the Govt. does not need to keep records (nor, should they be keeping records) of which guns I own (registration) and/or having a list of gun owners.*

Course, if you think that the Govt. should register guns and gun owners**.....then we'll agree to disagree.

*FYI....the LEFT has at times used FOIA (Freedom Of Information Act) to discover gun owners, in order to target them. Then, some places just present that sort of information on a silver platter.
Public access to firearm registry lists - Ballotpedia

**".....German firearm laws and hysteria created against Jewish firearm owners played a major role in laying the groundwork for the eradication of German Jewry in the Holocaust. Disarming political opponents was a categorical imperative of the Nazi regime. The Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution declares: "A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed." This right, which reflects a universal and historical power of the people in a republic to resist tyranny, was not recognized in the German Reich.

This article addresses German firearms laws and Nazi policies and practices to disarm German citizens, particularly political opponents and Jews. It begins with an account of post-World War I chaos, which led to the enactment in 1928 by the liberal Weimar republic of Germany's first comprehensive gun control law. Next, the Nazi seizure of power in 1933 was consolidated by massive searches and seizures of firearms from political opponents, who were invariably described as "communists." After five years of repression and eradication of dissidents, Hitler signed a new gun control law in 1938, which benefitted Nazi party members and entities, but denied firearm ownership to enemies of the state. Later that year, in Kristallnacht (the Night of the Broken Glass), in one fell swoop, the Nazi regime disarmed Germany's Jews. Without any ability to defend themselves, the Jewish population could easily be sent to concentration camps for the Final Solution. After World War II began, Nazi authorities continued to register and mistrust civilian firearm owners, and German resistence to the Nazi regime was unsuccessful."

Taken from: http://stephenhalbrook.com/article-nazilaw.pdf


Aloha, Mark

Umm, everyone would have the endorsement on their DL, even non gun owners. It would be automatic. Become prohibited, it gets punched.

 

[ma96782]

Umm, everyone would have the endorsement on their DL, even non gun owners. It would be automatic. Become prohibited, it gets punched.

Ummm.....I doubt that the Govt is interested in doing a BGC on everyone who wants to get a DL (or State ID).

But.....you have in a way, made an interesting point about universal carry. Everyone (not prohibited) should have a right to carry concealed. No need for any extra ID. OK, Ok, ok......it's a bigger issue. And I don't see it picking up traction here or in any of the LIBERAL STRONG HOLDS.

Aloha, Mark

 

[Wombat of Doom]

Are there any mental health professionals listening? I don't know enough about what could possibly be a reasonable change to how things are currently done.

Psych nurse here. Force the counties to report commitments and prohibited individuals to NICS. they are supposed to, but don't as there is no penalty for not doing so. I know some people hate NICS, but these are the folks you don't want having a gun.

 

[notazombie]

So, the premise of the argument is, "What we've done up to this point isn't working." Until that statement is reconciled and all gun related laws are repealed, I'm not interested in any "compromise".
The theory that we need to give them a template to work with or they'll give us one just doesn't hold water. Especially on the west coast. They have all the political power and we really can't stop them on a local level. Sorry, it's the sad truth. So why don't they just ban everything and confiscate right now? Optics. It's much more "sensible" to take it one piece at a time. Besides, they don't even need to take what gun owners voluntarily give up.

A little logic and a lot of personal responsibility would do this nation a lot of good.

 

[mrblond]

There is no middle ground. As long as the left control the media, they will continue to spew the anti gun rhetoric over and over because its whats being fed to them by the likes of nanny bloomberg and his ilk,
What we need is a PR firm and alot more education to the unwashed masses about firearms. maybe small workshops just to show the uneducated the truth about firearms.

 

[DB is Here]

There is no middle ground. As long as the left control the media, they will continue to spew the anti gun rhetoric over and over because its whats being fed to them by the likes of nanny bloomberg and his ilk,
What we need is a PR firm and alot more education to the unwashed masses about firearms. maybe small workshops just to show the uneducated the truth about firearms.

Exactly! They stopped reporting the news or having journalistic integrity many years ago. It's all paid opinions now.