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When I was in Iraq, every house had an AK. It was just how it was. I had to deal with it. I had to go into their houses, sometimes on point, knowing that they have a friggin AK. Went into hundreds of houses like this. During clearing, you'll run in a room find the family, and sometimes an AK an arms reach away. sometimes, dad would PICK IT UP AND HAND IT TO US.

Yet, no Iraqi ever got smoked 'em for simply grabbing at their guns. Sure it made us nervous as ****, but we never just shot them, even though we probably could and nobody wouldve thought twice about it. But we wouldnt.

Most cops are NOT vets. Very FEW cops are COMBAT vets. There is a monumental difference between a Warzone and a community. Soldiers operate in warzones. Cops serve the community. It's very dangerous for a society to apply the tactics of warfare to it's own people, like sneaking up in the dark with no light or sirens, and killing simply for HOLDING a rifle obove ones head with both hands. In fact, it's unacceptable.

There are more guns in this America that anywhere else on earth. Cops need to stop being scared everytime they see a gun. Unless they are actively pointed at you, grow a pair and deal with it.

Very few Police officers have ever been in a REAL high-threat environment, although they will think they have been. Cops don't get shot at everyday. Not every week. Not every month. Chances are, an officer will never receive return fire, let alone return fire from EVERY FRIGGIN HOUSE ON THE BLOCK SIMULTANEOUSLY! Cops don't deal with IEDs, EFP's, snipers, grenades, mortars, RPGs, VBIEDs, and balls-to-the-wall Firefights, and dead friends on a monthly basis.

But they act like they do.

A report was just released about NYPD police shootings.

"In the 713 reported incidents in which cops shot at civilians, the officer was the only one firing 77 percent of the time."

NYPD shooting stats show hits & misses - NYPOST.com

77% they're shooting and they ain't even being shot at! This is OUTRAGEOUS! They act like they take fire all the time, even though they know really nothing of a HIGH threat environment.

Cops are always right (unless video evidence explicitly proves otherwise), thats why they conduct "internal investigations", that why the Bill of Rights is suddenly negotiable to Police Officers. They are always right. They want the pay, and they want the power, but they don't want to accept consequences for their action.

Gresham Cops aren't saying anything. They know they F#^@ed up big-time. They know they murdered an innocent man in front of his child for no reason. They know that He did not need to be shot. They are scrambling to do damage control and cover up this MURDER-BY-COP.

Ssg. McDowell was NOT reported as suicidal.
He had no idea the police were coming/already there.
These wannabe tacticool Enforcers snuck up like rats.
The man was hard of hearing (war can do that, its weird), and he couldn't hear the cops.
Gun-over-head-with-both-hands is obviously not a threatening position, and it does not warrant being killed in front of your child.
He has a right to hold a firearm on his own property, especially if he has no reason to believe that there are cops around (What are lights and Sirens for?!)

He was a combat veteran. He has the right to have a bad day.
He didn't deserve to die for it.

-DR
 
Last Edited:
Yet, no Iraqi ever got smoked 'em for simply grabbing at their guns. Sure it made us nervous as ****, but we never just shot them, even though we probably could and nobody wouldve thought twice about it. But we wouldnt.
You ruined your whole post by starting off with this piece of false information. I was MI and I can tell you many Iraqi citizens have been "smoked" for being in possession of a firearm at the wrong time. You just label them an "insurgent" and move on. You are trying to support you opinion with false claims of valor and perfection.
 
This thread is laughable and almost scary.....Cops are trigger happy killers, they don't know stress till they have watched their buddy get blown up by an IED!

None of us know if the Gresham cops screwed up, but we can safely assume they weren't driving through the neighborhood looking for people legally carrying guns to shoot! They were called to a residence, anyone know for sure what the call history is at that residence? They get there, we don't know what happened for sure, but for some reason a person is outside with a gun. Outside with a gun at a home they were called to because the family felt it was necessary to call a life and death phone number and request their assistance.

Wait wasn't that a veteran that was shot in Eugene after shooting up the Valley River Center parking lot? Didn't he serve multiple combat tours in Afghanistan? So based on this should we assume all combat veterans are crazy just waiting to shoot at people in mall parking lots?

So maybe we can assume that the majority of time the cops respond to calls, and are baby sitting another family dispute, or wrestling another angry drunk, or make another routine traffic stop where the driver jumps out and shoots them, that they are doing their job right. Not all of them, just like any other group there are bad cops, bad surgeons, and bad auto mechanics. Just like the majority of soldiers who have been in the horrible circumstances that DeathRattle describes are good people who deserve credit and thanks for what they have done.
 
You ruined your whole post by starting off with this piece of false information. I was MI and I can tell you many Iraqi citizens have been "smoked" for being in possession of a firearm at the wrong time. You just label them an "insurgent" and move on. You are trying to support you opinion with false claims of valor and perfection.


Um.. Nope.

Being a fobbit POG in MI, you had access to much more information than me. Being an Infantryman, I only know what I saw.

We knew that AK's were in every house, therefore, we weren't surpirsed when we saw them. Never liked it when they grabbed it to hand it to us, and sure, they may have found themselves at gunpoint, but me and Noone I was with ever smoked somebody in there own house for reaching, grabbing, clearing, handing off the AK that we knew was in there. Running around the streets with guns, sure, thats different, and we would respond differently. On a rooftop with a cellphone, or binoculars? Sure, we responded differently.. Rest assured, I will NEVER claim perfection or valor, and I will never sit silent when good men, or any citizen die because of the employment of Warfare tactics on the American People.

Trust me, If I could just sit back and say, "oh, well, He wanted to die anyways. Thanks Cops!" I would, but it's so easy for me to identlfy with these guys, and see myself in their situation. Being a POG Fobbit, that might be harder for you to do.

It's like, "Wow, I better not have a bad day, or I might wind up dead". He was complaining about how society treats it's veterans and how nobody gives a crap, and whaddya know... Gets smoked in front of his family, and it's HIS FAULT!?

The guy was having a bad day. His wife trusted Gresham Cops to "Protect and Serve", but they took that trust and killed her husband. A family, without a father, and for what?!

Good job, cops. Society is now safer with one less veteran/activist/hero, and we are forever in debt to you for your selfless service. You bravely elliminated the domestic terrorist threat. Best of all, you've sent a very clear message to all veterans suffering from the **** of war: "Don't call on us for help. We might just show up in secret and kill you."

Good Job. God Bless America. Land of the Free, and home of the Brave.

Shame.
 
When I was in Iraq, every house had an AK. It was just how it was. I had to deal with it. I had to go into their houses, sometimes on point, knowing that they have a friggin AK. Went into hundreds of houses like this. During clearing, you'll run in a room find the family, and sometimes an AK an arms reach away. sometimes, dad would PICK IT UP AND HAND IT TO US.

Yet, no Iraqi ever got smoked 'em for simply grabbing at their guns. Sure it made us nervous as ****, but we never just shot them, even though we probably could and nobody wouldve thought twice about it. But we wouldnt.

Most cops are NOT vets. Very FEW cops are COMBAT vets. There is a monumental difference between a Warzone and a community. Soldiers operate in warzones. Cops serve the community. It's very dangerous for a society to apply the tactics of warfare to it's own people, like sneaking up in the dark with no light or sirens, and killing simply for HOLDING a rifle obove ones head with both hands. In fact, it's unacceptable.

There are more guns in this America that anywhere else on earth. Cops need to stop being scared everytime they see a gun. Unless they are actively pointed at you, grow a pair and deal with it.

Very few Police officers have ever been in a REAL high-threat environment, although they will think they have been. Cops don't get shot at everyday. Not every week. Not every month. Chances are, an officer will never receive return fire, let alone return fire from EVERY FRIGGIN HOUSE ON THE BLOCK SIMULTANEOUSLY! Cops don't deal with IEDs, EFP's, snipers, grenades, mortars, RPGs, VBIEDs, and balls-to-the-wall Firefights, and dead friends on a monthly basis.

But they act like they do.

A report was just released about NYPD police shootings.

"In the 713 reported incidents in which cops shot at civilians, the officer was the only one firing 77 percent of the time."

NYPD shooting stats show hits & misses - NYPOST.com

77% they're shooting and they ain't even being shot at! This is OUTRAGEOUS! They act like they take fire all the time, even though they know really nothing of a HIGH threat environment.

Cops are always right (unless video evidence explicitly proves otherwise), thats why they conduct "internal investigations", that why the Bill of Rights is suddenly negotiable to Police Officers. They are always right. They want the pay, and they want the power, but they don't want to accept consequences for their action.

Gresham Cops aren't saying anything. They know they F#^@ed up big-time. They know they murdered an innocent man in front of his child for no reason. They know that He did not need to be shot. They are scrambling to do damage control and cover up this MURDER-BY-COP.

Ssg. McDowell was NOT reported as suicidal.
He had no idea the police were coming/already there.
These wannabe tacticool Enforcers snuck up like rats.
The man was hard of hearing (war can do that, its weird), and he couldn't hear the cops.
Gun-over-head-with-both-hands is obviously not a threatening position, and it does not warrant being killed in front of your child.
He has a right to hold a firearm on his own property, especially if he has no reason to believe that there are cops around (What are lights and Sirens for?!)

He was a combat veteran. He has the right to have a bad day.
He didn't deserve to die for it.

-DR


This post speaks volumes of your ignorance of policing and what they daily encounter (or must me prepared to encounter - so that they too can go home at night). As to your "combat experience" it must have been very unique indeed. Thank you for further proving my point.
 
I would like to do a ride along with the Portland police department to see how bad it really is - how do I do it? I want to see what actually the Police do and maybe gain a new respect for them. I might learn something.

As I see it society is becoming more and more seperated in thier trust of the Police in this country - something will eventually come to a head. Right now I think that there is a large portion of society that do not trust the police or LEO's any longer - I for one would like to understand them a bit better.
 
This post speaks volumes of your ignorance of policing and what they daily encounter (or must me prepared to encounter - so that they too can go home at night). As to your "combat experience" it must have been very unique indeed. Thank you for further proving my point.

Well, we started the very first Combat Outpost in Baghdad in January 2007 stayed there till late november. Yes. It was unique. Thanks for noticing.
Anyways, not that I don't appreciate all the attention, but there is something more important than me going on here.


Look, In America, as a citizens WE are the boss. We tell them (all public servants) what to do, they don't tell us what they're going to do and force us to accept it. I'm not going to sit and accept that cops need to treat Americans like we treated Hajdi. I'm not going to accept the fact that battlefield tactics are being used to fight bogus wars (War on Terror/War on Drugs/War on Poverty, etc...) against the American People. Why should I? Why should any of us?

"He who would trade Liberty for Security, deserves neither." Sound familiar? We've allowed Police to be the babysitters of society, and like most 15 year old girls who babysit, these Enforcement Agencies* are often very selfish and only care about what they look like and who likes them, not how they are impacting the world with their actions.

Ya know, for a gun forum, there are a lot of people here who have zero problem with gross abuses of authority at the hands of Government. Oddly, they hoot and hooler in support of such abuses, not realizing the hypocrisy of their support with respect to the 2nde Amendment. Lot of folks on here seem to embrace a police state, rather than reject it. Folks.... A man is dead. Killed by the forces that were summoned to help. We have unarmed people being killed with 5.56 at the hands of Enforcers* who have impunity. People bPinned down 12-year-olds being shot with beanbags. They are even BEATING people to death. I think this is a problem, but apparently I'm wierd.


* I don't like the word "law enforcement", as it suggests that officers enforce all laws, and they do so equally. I don't see anyone arresting Bush, Cheney, Obama, etc... For violating the Constitution every which way. They "Enforce" anything they are told to, law be damned.
 
I have been away from the forum for some time, and am now back. I have read this thread with some interest.

I am NOT and never have been an LEO, however I have been through the Reserve Officer POST Academy and have my Level I Reserve certification. I've been on many "ride-alongs" with officers in two States and have at least a slight appreciation for their determination to "go home to the family" after their shift.

For the individual who suggested that answering the door with a firearm in your hand is not very smart, I only will say that Home Invasions happen all over the country, even if they are not widely reported. If I am not expecting someone and have a knock on my door, I always have a firearm in my hand when I respond.

I also take my firearms, rifle, shotgun, and handgun, outside quite frequently. The smell of cleaning products in not something my Wife wants in our home, especially if I'm cleaning caked on cosmoline or serious copper fouling from a "new" surplus arm.

We'll never know for sure what actually transpired in this case. I'm sure there will be conflicting statements from the various witnesses and participants. About the only thing we can probably all agree on is that the outcome was very tragic for all concerned, including the Officers who also get to live with the result for the rest of their lives.
 
DeathRattle, first off Thank You. And I'm sorry for anything you had to go through in service for your country.

I completely see you side and what your/other vets can go through and what they may see as ok.

But, Police just like any other "enforcement" have to protect others as well as themselves first. They don't know if the gun is loaded or what the man's intentions were. If in that position I would treat a vet as I would any person.
There's is only so much a LEO can do to solve a situation like this. But every citizen has to know when you dealing with police and a weapon, and a vet should know more than anyone, that they will kill you if you are a threat to them or the innocent people around. Period. They can't wait until an innocent person dies to kill a threat.

Either way it's a sad end to a great American.
 
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