Gresham Cops murder Iraq Veteran for holding gun on his own property!

[jgeist]

I too am a vet and would never consider walking out my door with a rifle above my head... If I have the need to bear arms in public they will be at the ready, period... I am not sure what was in this guy's head, but he did wrong and paid the price for it.... This is not Iraq, or war zone, common sense needs to prevail... Don't blame the cops for a bad decision on his part...

 

[Buddhalux]

Until the details of the shooting come to light I'm refraining from blaming anyone.

 

[DeathRattle]

"At one point, Tina said, she went into the bedroom and found Anthony sobbing, so she talked to him until he had calmed down. He talked repeatedly about how people did not care about military veterans, she said.

But Teresa said he never talked about killing himself and said she did not tell the dispatcher that he was suicidal. "



The family gave an interview. Here's the article:

Anthony McDowell's family says he was not given time to follow orders before Gresham police shot him | OregonLive.com

 

[clearconscience]

That new article tells us a couple things,

1. Victim was non in a normal frame of mind. He was back and forth. He was not thinking clearly. He was in someway intoxicated. And if he wasn't taking medication then that could cause him to do something extreme, or if he was taking meds, maybe it had a bad effect caused by the alcohol.

2. He was grabbing guns, and going outside to do what??? Maybe flashbacks, maybe leave by force/intimidation??

3. He was smiling just before he was shot. (Speculation) but that to me is an indication he trying to calm his daughter (before doing something, for lack of better words, crazy?) and/or doesn't see the reality of what he's doing.

4. The family members couldn't see if he pointed the gun at police, or made an aggressive move to prompt the shooting. The LEOs don't know the gun is loaded or otherwise. They tried to give him commands, I don't care if you give commands for 2 seconds or an hour as soon as you point the gun, make an aggressive move, or something to that effect your endangering someone's life and they have every right and obligation to use deadly force.

That's assuming the family is telling the truth. And I hate to say that.

I hate the thought of this, I'm thinking about joining the Army and me and my wife have been discussing the good and bad. At least for me I've researched a lot PTSD, problems soldiers face when returning home from deployment, etc. No matter how prepared you are you can't know how seeing things from war will effect you.

 

[One-Eyed Ross]

With reference PTSD, the vast majority of soldiers do not suffer from it on a long term basis. Everyone has some difficulty, yes, but actual severe PTSD is not as common as the press makes it seem. There are people available to help soldiers, but the soldier needs to amenable to receive treatment. Many don't, and for some good reasons. Treatment for PTSD can, in some cases, cause loss of 2nd Amendment rights, even while on active duty. (Yes, you can carry a firearm for the Army but can't buy one for yourself...) There is also a stigma attached (or used to be, anyway) to receiving mental health care.

Joining the military, clearconscience, is a worthy goal, and I wish you luck.

RHF
SSG, USA (Ret)

 

[motoman98]

The very sad truth is the Police, by means of their SWAT teams, have decided that it is much too difficult and risky to attempt to "help" those like Sgt. McDowell. They do not have another track to take when a citizen has a weapon other than to demand surrender or literally die. Who was thinking that it was dark, very windy, and the unannounced Police were in black uniforms with cars parked far away? Who made sure Sgt McDowell heard and understood their shouted commands? Who ordered the officers to open fire or greenlighted his shooting within seconds, not minutes of shouted commands? Now, to me it seems that their training is suspect and as wittnessed: short sighted. For all citizens the question arises: Is this how WE want our law enforcement to respond? I think it is time for the citizens of this and other cities to DEMAND they become more responsive and carefull when responding using deadly force. This life cannot be replaced, his kids will never know him in old age, his wife must deal with the loss of the family breadwinner and her soul-mate of 20years. The cost of these policies is too high; they should be changed.

 

[Buddhalux]

The very sad truth is the Police, by means of their SWAT teams, have decided that it is much too difficult and risky to attempt to "help" those like Sgt. McDowell. They do not have another track to take when a citizen has a weapon other than to demand surrender or literally die. Who was thinking that it was dark, very windy, and the unannounced Police were in black uniforms with cars parked far away? Who made sure Sgt McDowell heard and understood their shouted commands? Who ordered the officers to open fire or greenlighted his shooting within seconds, not minutes of shouted commands? Now, to me it seems that their training is suspect and as wittnessed: short sighted. For all citizens the question arises: Is this how WE want our law enforcement to respond? I think it is time for the citizens of this and other cities to DEMAND they become more responsive and carefull when responding using deadly force. This life cannot be replaced, his kids will never know him in old age, his wife must deal with the loss of the family breadwinner and her soul-mate of 20years. The cost of these policies is too high; they should be changed.

My thoughts exactly. The current trend of police killing more and more people makes me less and less trusting of them in ANY capacity.

 

[mjbskwim]

I have worked with many WW II,Koream War and Viet Nam vets over the years.
I have a few Middle East vets for friends also. And worked with a few.
The Viet Nam vets,with all do respect,were notoriously unstable,Korean Wars vets not too bad and the WWII vets took it in stride.

My good friend says he is heavily medicated for OUR protection.Joke?Ehh doesn't really say.His wife says no joke.
The one guy I worked with said he would wake up in the middle of the night,grab his AR and throw the wife to the ground "They"re coming" type stuff
And as I put in another thread,at a bank on Ft Lewis,a guy came back and hadn't been getting his pay.He walked into the bank and put a gun to the tellers forehead,demanding his pay. The manager manned up and stepped in front of the teller and resolved the problem and he was taken down out side.
And another friend who wasn't dangerous but was drunk for about 3 years after coming back.
But we put these guys,KIDS,for the most part,out there to kill others and then they are supposed to come back and lead normal lives.
After killing people.
If there is some resolution,it would be to actually try to help these guys when they get back,instead of just throwing them back to their wives and children,and all the problems that come with.
Educate the families as to what the soldier's mindset might be like,AFTER KILLING people.

I say that part over and over because it is not normal for us to take another's life.
But they make them do it and expect the soldiers to come back and act like normal human beings after being in a war zone.

Some do quite well and others don't.

 

[Mudpuppy]

My thoughts exactly. The current trend of police killing more and more people makes me less and less trusting of them in ANY capacity.

Just in 2011 there have been 22 Officers killed in the line of duty. That includes th 4 who were killed in a Detroit police station last weekend. Maybe it's time for you and Motoman to go to your local police station and do a ride along. Better yet, apply for a position with them. I am sure that the first thing you will be thinking of when confronted with a deadly force situation is the assailants family (Gee, I know that he has a rifle that will easily penetrate my body armor, I know that the last thing I was told was that he is a suicidal war vet....but gosh, his family will have so many burdens without him and his kids will have to grow up with out a father). I am sure that the officer, in your over-inflated opinion, has no right to think about his own children or wife.
I am a Police officer and a war vet, and trust me...when there is a call of a suicidal vet or any war vet doing anything that requires my attention, I am on extra guard...because I know first hand what a war vet is capable of doing. Just remember, there are people from all walks of life who are war vets. Many of them hate cops more than you do. There is a reason there are Military Police...little clue...it's because vets break the law also.

 

[One-Eyed Ross]

mjbskwim, one of the reasons that WWII and Korean war vets had a lower rate of PTSD is, according to some authors, a result of the boat ride home. Seems silly, but the long trip home with the brothers in arms allowed for decompression time with the peer group. During Viet Nam and the current situation is SW Asia, a guy can be on the firing line one day and back home with his wife the next. This isn't a good thing...some authors believe that this is the main cause of the increase in the need for treatment of PTSD.

 

[PlayboyPenguin]

LEO's face danger all the time. A man holding a rifle in a non-threatening manner can almost instantly become a man shooting at you with a rifle. When someone puts themselves in a position of having a firearm in their hands when confronting officers you have to assume they have a reason to be doing something that is clearly a really bad idea. My assumption would be that they intend to use it or to at least intimidate with it. If I was the officer I would not wait until after he shot me to act.

 

[JGRuby]

I dont take these cases one at a time - I look at the police officers as a whole
There are too many people dieing because police officers are trigger happy
Chassee dies because he was beat to death , the other guy getting shot in the back for possibly having a fire arm on him. The police invovled in that should have gone to prison for manslaughter at the least.The police overall are resorting to shooting people much too often.
Oh and by the way on my property I can have a gun in plain sight it is my right as a land owner - if I want to come to a door with a fire arm on my side in my own house I have the right. I would be foolish for publicly dsiplaying my firearm as that is looking for a fight but I have the legal right to do so.
These are my opinions let the flames begin.

James Ruby

 

[PlayboyPenguin]

Oh and by the way on my property I can have a gun in plain sight it is my right as a land owner - if I want to come to a door with a fire arm on my side in my own house I have the right. I would be foolish for publicly dsiplaying my firearm as that is looking for a fight but I have the legal right to do so.
These are my opinions let the flames begin.

James Ruby

Come to the door and exit your home with a firearm in your hand while be confronted by law enforcement and you deserve what you get. Live a stupid life, die a stupid death.

I will never support a mindset that requires officers to fire only when fired upon.

 

[Riot]

'I couldn't believe it." said friend Ty Smith. "He has a heart of gold. He's always upbeat."
'He was stubborn but he valued life." said Smith.

Reminds me of all those thugs being shot by the police...you see their Aunt/Mother what have you on the news crying about how he was such a good kid and would never hurt anyone.

Tony McDowell DID NOT "confront" the police with a gun. He walked out of the house holding a rifle up over his head with both hands. He did not even know that the police were outside.

How do you know what he did or didn't know? If he didn't know their were police, then why place the rifle above his head in the first place? There are way too many contradictory statements in this article.

I will never support a mindset that requires officers to fire only when fired upon.

 

[JGRuby]

PBP - I think you are wrong on this I am a vet I have no criminal record and if want to carry a gun I can - the law says I can - if you come to my house when I open the door I am more than likely going to be carrying regardless of who you are. Whether you like it or not. There is a distinction between pointing or brandishing a firearm towards anyone and carrying one - you sure should understand this, its actually pretty basic.

Now I understand police officers shooting people but make it a real threat and not an imagined one. If you are a police officer with your mentallity you scare the **** out of me. I can see no reason why a person that shoots an unarmed man only gets fired from his job. Anyone else that shot an unarmed man would be going to prison. Police officers need to be held acountable for thier actions and today they act with impunity. If the man has a weapon and he is begining to move in such a manner as to cause alarm that's one thing on the other hand simply having a firearm is not something some one should be killed for. Police are not gods and yet they are begining to act like one - do as everything I say or your dead and no one can do anything about it. I read about cops in the newspaper everyday and for every good story I read tow or three negative - what is going on with Portland Police Beareau?

 

[mjbskwim]

This is a very good point to remember.Out of all the vets I have worked wit over the years,a few HAD to either sign up for war or go to prison/jail.Some guys made bad decisions and some just were bubblegumed up before they went into the military.

I am a Police officer and a war vet, and trust me...when there is a call of a suicidal vet or any war vet doing anything that requires my attention, I am on extra guard...because I know first hand what a war vet is capable of doing. Just remember, there are people from all walks of life who are war vets. Many of them hate cops more than you do. There is a reason there are Military Police...little clue...it's because vets break the law also.

And One-Eye,that's a very good point also.Didn't realize that,but makes a ton of sense

 

[MilesTeg]

"Gresham Cops murder Iraq Veteran for holding gun on his own property! "

It is just pathetic that so many salivate at the chance to blame the police. To paraphrase: "Better for some to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt"

 

[mjbskwim]

"Gresham Cops murder Iraq Veteran for holding gun on his own property! "

It is just pathetic that so many salivate at the chance to blame the police. To paraphrase: "Better for some to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt"

Boy you really added to the thread
Thanks

 

[MountainBear]

Boy you really added to the thread
Thanks

Actually, he gave an apt description of the OP. The title of this thread is poorly worded. There has been no trial. There has been NO MURDER. I wish people would remember that innocent until proven guilty applies to LEO's as well...

 

[mjbskwim]

Actually, he gave an apt description of the OP. The title of this thread is poorly worded. There has been no trial. There has been NO MURDER. I wish people would remember that innocent until proven guilty applies to LEO's as well...

That is a good description of about 90% of everyone on the internet.

As stated many times in this thread,why did he go out side with the rifle? And over his head?

I don't care who you are,if you live in the suburbs or an urban environment,you know there will be cops soon if you start running around the front yard with a gun.
My area? May take a while.In the city,it doesn't usually take too long.At least before they are called.

Somewhere in the back of this guys mind,he had to know there would be police coming and needed to stop playing with the rifle.
If I had to go check on people with guns every day,I would be very suspect of a guy running around with a rifle.And I suppose on guard at all times.

I think it's as much the vets need to stop getting really angry in public,while packing,as it is the cops may,MAY need some restraint.

But,the gun comes out and all bets are off.Color,age,vet,doctor,gender.A three year old can pull a trigger.
Ask any VN vet.