Forced Reset Trigger - NOT a binary trigger

[Member 34319]

30 rounds in right at 1.5 seconds. Thats 1200 RPM cyclic. Not a lot you can do to slow that down either. No buffer in there.

I'm not familiar with the Ratler, but can you adjust the gas at all? How fast does it run without the cash on it?

Also, did you ever get one to run in a RDB set up? I still need to try that.

 

[wired]

I'm not familiar with the Ratler, but can you adjust the gas at all? How fast does it run without the cash on it?

Also, did you ever get one to run in a RDB set up? I still need to try that.

Didn't try it without the can. It does run significantly slower with subs. Only a 2 position piston gas system. Supers and subs.

Yeah the RDB. Sore subject. Blew the key off the bolt carrier yesterday. Sheered both bolts. Seems to possibly have fired out of battery. Still got to get ahold of CMMG.

 

[Member 34319]

Didn't try it without the can. It does run significantly slower with subs. Only a 2 position piston gas system. Supers and subs.

Yeah the RDB. Sore subject. Blew the key off the bolt carrier yesterday. Sheered both bolts. Seems to possibly have fired out of battery. Still got to get ahold of CMMG.

I'd be curious to see it run without the can on it. Probably slow it down a bit, maybe.

Sorry to hear about the CMMG, they have good customer service though.

 

[RVTECH]

No, you need to apply pressure. So be it the trigger gets pushed forward every time.

I know nothing about 'binary triggers' or any related accessories to increase the rate of fire BUT It would seem to me if the reset is 'forced' by action and all that is needed is to maintain pressure on the trigger this could be considered FA as you are not really physically pulling the trigger to continue firing.

Again mostly inexperienced in this area and no 'dog in the fight' !

 

[wired]

I know nothing about 'binary triggers' or any related accessories to increase the rate of fire BUT It would seem to me if the reset is 'forced' by action and all that is needed is to maintain pressure on the trigger this could be considered FA as you are not really physically pulling the trigger to continue firing.

Again mostly inexperienced in this area and no 'dog in the fight' !

You have to pull the trigger. Not full auto. All the FRT does is reset the trigger for you. You still have to pull the trigger each time. The good thing is you are already applying pressure to the trigger.

 

[Member 34319]

I know nothing about 'binary triggers' or any related accessories to increase the rate of fire BUT It would seem to me if the reset is 'forced' by action and all that is needed is to maintain pressure on the trigger this could be considered FA as you are not really physically pulling the trigger to continue firing.

Again mostly inexperienced in this area and no 'dog in the fight' !

I agree, it can be. In time it will be under scrutiny.

If you watch the videos, you will clearly see the trigger is pulled per each round fired. The exact definition of a semi automatic trigger. That is what Rare Breed is going with. That it is a semi automatic trigger. There is no need to submit semi automatic trigger for clarification to the ATF, just like companies like Timney don't submit their new semi auto triggers for approval. They are not regulated. So by that thinking, this isn't anything that needs to be regulated. In court, maybe a judge would interpret things differently.

 

[The Heretic]

I know nothing about 'binary triggers' or any related accessories to increase the rate of fire BUT It would seem to me if the reset is 'forced' by action and all that is needed is to maintain pressure on the trigger this could be considered FA as you are not really physically pulling the trigger to continue firing.

No - you are pulling the trigger, again and again - the trigger is just forcing the reset for you. It might seem to be a grey area (I agree it probably is), but then we are talking about a stupid law to start with. You do physically pull the trigger again, it is just easier and so much faster - it seems like you are holding it back but you are not - it is like "bump firing" in that way, only easier and more reliable (I assume). Some triggers are light and precise enough that the same thing can be accomplished with practice, even though they are standard (not binary, not forced reset) triggers - e.g., the Geisselle GRF.

IIRC I am given to understand that forced reset triggers have been around for quite a while (shotguns for skeet/etc. competition)?

 

[wired]

The actual grey area is not the reset. Its the locking bar that keeps you from pulling the trigger until the bolt closes. It releases the trigger as long as your finger is pulling the trigger but will not release until the round is in battery. Its a trigger safety but is really more like an auto sear than a trigger release but it does function differently than a normal automatic sear. .

 

[The Heretic]

The actual grey area is not the reset. Its the locking bar that keeps you from pulling the trigger until the bolt closes. It releases the trigger as long as your finger is pulling the trigger but will not release until the round is in battery. Its a trigger safety but is really more like an auto sear than a trigger release but it does function differently than a normal automatic sear. .

It is another "loophole" in the law - one that I applaud, but not one that I will buy because I think (IMO) eventually the ATF and/or Congress will get around to addressing this issue by trying to outlaw anything that increases the semi-auto rate of fire - which will be hard to do and will face court cases, but while that is happening anybody in possession of such devices where the trigger does not clearly reset by action of the user will find themselves in a legal limbo land.

 

[RVTECH]

You still have to pull the trigger each time. The good thing is you are already applying pressure to the trigger.

So because you are already applying pressure on the trigger I assume the trigger pull is then very light then correct?

 

[wired]

So because you are already applying pressure on the trigger I assume the trigger pull is then very light then correct?

Same as normal . About 5 lbs. You just don't notice you are pulling the trigger each time. If you want slomo videos of it you are.

 

[RVTECH]

You just don't notice you are pulling the trigger each time.

What then eliminates you 'noticing' you are pulling the trigger if it in fact is still maintaining a somewhat 'normal' 5 lbs?

I watched the video 'FRT trigger in a 300 BO SIG Rattler' and quite frankly the rate of fire was so fast I could not see the shooter was pulling the trigger each time and I can't imagine anyone being able to pull a trigger that fast. Jerry M. is fast - but not nearly that fast or as consistent with the number of rounds shown in the video.

Is the recoil of the rifle assisting in the rapid pull of the trigger ?

Just trying to get an education with this!

 

[wired]

What then eliminates you 'noticing' you are pulling the trigger if it in fact is still maintaining a somewhat 'normal' 5 lbs?

I watched the video 'FRT trigger in a 300 BO SIG Rattler' and quite frankly the rate of fire was so fast I could not see the shooter was pulling the trigger each time and I can't imagine anyone being able to pull a trigger that fast. Jerry M. is fast - but not nearly that fast or as consistent with the number of rounds shown in the video.

Is the recoil of the rifle assisting in the rapid pull of the trigger ?

Just trying to get an education with this!

Since you never let up pressure you don't notice your finger moving. It's always 5 lbs .

 

[RVTECH]

Since you never let up pressure you don't notice your finger moving. It's always 5 lbs .

Got it.

Now the guy on the RecoilTV vid said 'The other thing you are going to need is a full auto or M-16 bolt carrier' - could this possibly influence any potential legality?

And if a full auto M-16 bolt carrier is required will all uppers (regardless of Mfg.) accept a full auto m-16 bolt carrier?

 

[wired]

Got it.

Now the guy on the RecoilTV vid said the 'other thing you are going to need is a full auto or M-16 bolt carrier' - could this possibly influence any potential legality?

Yes the trigger needs an M16 bolt carrier to operate. That is what releases the trigger so you can pull it once in battery.

 

[Member 34319]

And if a full auto M-16 bolt carrier is required will all uppers (regardless of Mfg.) accept a full auto m-16 bolt carrier?

Full auto carriers are essentially the new normal. Not many still use non full auto. Most don't even market it as full auto, just a bolt carrier. I can't think of any AR upper receiver that won't operate with either. I really have no idea as to why the semi auto version was created in the first place.

 

[Member 34319]

Yes the trigger needs an M16 bolt carrier to operate. That is what releases the trigger so you can pull it once in battery.

To some extent it does release the trigger, and to some extent it doesn't. There is a regular sear in there somewhere. As you feel the trigger release from it when you pull it mid stroke (especially if manually cycling the action). The bar is no different than the one in some binary triggers, it is more of a timing/safety device that prevents the trigger from going forward unless the gun is in battery. I believe that is why RB refers to it as a safety. It prevents out of battery hammer fall.

 

[wired]

To some extent it does release the trigger, and to some extent it doesn't. There is a regular sear in there somewhere. As you feel the trigger release from it when you pull it mid stroke (especially if manually cycling the action). The bar is no different than the one in some binary triggers, it is more of a timing/safety device that prevents the trigger from going forward unless the gun is in battery. I believe that is why RB refers to it as a safety. It prevents out of battery hammer fall.

Yeah but a safety sear does the same thing and those are generally ruled the same thing as auto sears by the ATF even if they cannot actually run full auto. I just don't see a long future for the FRT.

 

[Member 34319]

Yeah but a safety sear does the same thing and those are generally ruled the same thing as auto sears by the ATF even if they cannot actually run full auto. I just don't see a long future for the FRT.

Agreed, I keep thinking I should be buying a few more for investment reasons!

 

[ilikegunspdx]

...I really have no idea as to why the semi auto version was created in the first place.

FYI according to wiki Colt made a number of changes to make it harder to convert a gun to full auto, including the bcg.