Engraving requirements under new brace rule

[wired]

the WA gun law video made it seem as though there was no option for trust to own non NFA item but that doesn't seem right? I'm sure I'm ignorant here so perhaps someone better informed can clear up any confusion.

As far as the current situation the problem is what the ATF considers the drop dead date on trust inclusion. Its really not clear. Theyve muddied it up and its either the 13th of January which is past or the inclusion into the register which hasn't happened yet. . Until they clear it up its hard to say for sure which one it is.

Of course you can put non NFA items in trust. I have a furniture schedule on my trust. Regular guns are no problem.

 

[VinnieBoomBah]

but that doesn't seem right?

Maybe because it isn't? I know my trust owns a specific dollar bill, and I'm pretty sure it's not an NFA item

 

[wired]

Don't ask my opinion of that WA Gun Law guy.

 

[VinnieBoomBah]

Don't ask my opinion of that WA Gun Law guy.

They could ask me

I have a feeling we have close to the same opinion

 

[Member 5605]

As far as the current situation the problem is what the ATF considers the drop dead date on trust inclusion. Its really not clear. Theyve muddied it up and its either the 13th of January which is past or the inclusion into the register which hasn't happened yet. . Until they clear it up its hard to say for sure which one it is.

I walked through their "new rule" form1 process to see what was in there and they claim you are required to show proof the item was possessed by the trust or legal entity prior to Jan 13th. Then again, that doesn't mean jack chit considering everything. (IE: I faked making a form1 SBR to go through the process to see what's required).

Not defending either position or date but there is a caveat in there to show a schedule or trust dated prior to Jan 13.

 

[wired]

I walked through their "new rule" form1 process to see what was in there and they claim you are required to show proof the item was possessed by the trust or legal entity prior to Jan 13th. Then again, that doesn't mean jack chit considering everything. (IE: I faked making a form1 SBR to go through the process to see what's required).

Not defending either position or date but there is a caveat in there to show a schedule or trust dated prior to Jan 13.

The issue being in most states , OR and WA included there is no requirement to notarize an schedule A addition. As a trustee on a revocable living trust you can shuffle trust items in and out at will. From what Ive seen the ATF seems to be requiring notarization.

 

[Member 5605]

The issue being in most states , OR and WA included there is no requirement to notarize an schedule A addition. As a trustee on a revocable living trust you can shuffle trust items in and out at will.

Correct. I mean anyone could have a 20 year old trust and have a Sched A with a hand written serial and it would be valid. No real 'proof' on it being in the trust than sasquatch existing next door to you.

 

[Yarome]

the WA gun law video made it seem as though there was no option for trust to own non NFA item but that doesn't seem right? I'm sure I'm ignorant here so perhaps someone better informed can clear up any confusion.

What he was saying is that a non-nfa item can not transfer ownership/registration to a trust as a seperate entity... like you can with an NFA item.

That does not mean that you cannot designate it as property for control/dispensation according to the statues of a trust. (Just as you can for a special $ bill, your baby blanket or your playboy collection.) A will would serve in the exact same function.

Essentially... you only transfer control of the "property" to a trust, but the trust cannot be the registered owner/entity of a non-NFA item. There is no process for that like their is for an NFA item.

Two different animals. "Control" vs. "registered ownership".

 

[JedB]

But has the clock started running on the 120 days yet? I thought it was either (unlikely) in the trust before the rule was announced on Jan 13th or (more likley) in the trust before the rule is published

It appears that the final ruling by the ATF has NOT been entered into the Federal Register yet, so the 120 day clock has not started.

 

[ilikegunspdx]

Fwiw Re trusts, I have seen 2 dates on official ATF docs (as some have said above and on other threads):

1) the attorney general-signed rule states that gun must be in trust ownership before date published in federal register

2) the internet sign up states the gun must be in trust ownership before Jan 13.

So those two are in direct conflict and as wired stated above unless atf clarifies it there is no way to know. Clear as mud, kind of like many things with atf. My guess is whoever does the website work for atf was thinking attorney-signed is official date. Others who did the faqs and rule making work were thinking published is is the official date. One of them is wrong.

From another poster on another thread:

 

[orygun]

What happens when I go to do my estate planning and create a Revocable Living Trust (as I believe it's called)? Can't all of my firearms be included, SBR or not?

 

[ilikegunspdx]

What happens when I go to do my estate planning and create a Revocable Living Trust (as I believe it's called)? Can't all of my firearms be included, SBR or not?

Skip to 43:35 in this video to see a compelling reason why not to have non nfa guns on it. I guess by "it" I mean the schedule A. Maybe it can be in a trust and not on schedule A? I have no clue about that. Maybe cleaner to have a nfa gun trust and a seperate regular trust in terms of info going to ATF?

 

[wired]

What he was saying is that a non-nfa item can not transfer ownership/registration to a trust as a seperate entity... like you can with an NFA item.

That does not mean that you cannot designate it as property for control/dispensation according to the statues of a trust. (Just as you can for a special $ bill, your baby blanket or your playboy collection.) A will would serve in the exact same function.

Essentially... you only transfer control of the "property" to a trust, but the trust cannot be the registered owner/entity of a non-NFA item. There is no process for that like their is for an NFA item.

Two different animals. "Control" vs. "registered ownership".

Which is incorrect. Trusts existed for a long time before someone figured out the NFA angle. Trusts "own" all sorts of things including standard non NFA firearms.

What happens when I go to do my estate planning and create a Revocable Living Trust (as I believe it's called)? Can't all of my firearms be included, SBR or not?

Of course they can. You can put bank accounts in trust, furniture, cars, pots and pans etc. Even non NFA guns.

 

[Yarome]

What happens when I go to do my estate planning and create a Revocable Living Trust (as I believe it's called)? Can't all of my firearms be included, SBR or not?

As property, sure! It just depends on what your goals are if it's wise to use that mechanism, to maintain a seperate trust specifically for your NFA's only, or other...

It just depends on what you are trying to accomplish.

 

[CountryGent]

What happens when I go to do my estate planning and create a Revocable Living Trust (as I believe it's called)? Can't all of my firearms be included, SBR or not?

For whatever it is worth, the attorney that drafted our Trust strongly recommended regular, Title I items in the collection go on the trust.

 

[Yarome]

Which is incorrect. Trusts existed for a long time before someone figured out the NFA angle.\

Did I forget to check in with the ultimate authority on all firearm related laws? My bad!

Go try and use your trust as the purchaser, fill out a 4473, pass a background check and be named the registered owner of a non-nfa firearm. Then we'll talk.

An NFA item.. the trust can be the registered owner. Non-NFA.. it's simply assigned property. It may be beyond some to see the legal distinction, but it's there... and is an absolute fact.

 

[Yarome]

For whatever it is worth, the attorney that drafted our Trust strongly recommended regular, Title I items in the collection go on the trust.

It can be the best option.

One example where you might keep your NFA items in a seperate "gun trust" would be naming joint tustees comprised of individuals that you want to have use access of your NFA's, but may not necessarily want all of them as joint trustees on your trust assets. (Typically being a successor trustee list.. vs... joint trustees.)

If your "gun trust" trustee is the single and "one and the same" as your asset trust then it may be good reason to only have the one. There may be other factors involved to consider though so it is always in your best interest to consult a professioal with any estate planning strategy.

 

[wired]

Did I forget to check in with the ultimate authority on all firearm related laws? My bad!

Go try and use your trust as the purchaser, fill out a 4473, pass a background check and be named the registered owner of a non-nfa firearm. Then we'll talk.

An NFA item.. the trust can be the registered owner. Non-NFA.. it's simply assigned property. It may be beyond some to see the legal distinction, but it's there... and is an absolute fact.

Your trust does not fill out a 4473 to be the legal owner of NFA items does it? It is not necessary for a 4473 to be filled out in most of the US in private sales. 4473's are not titles of ownership. As a trustee I can transfer regular title 1 firearms into a trust and even write out a nice transfer document to do so. There is no distinction.

 

[Yarome]

Your trust does not fill out a 4473 to be the legal owner of NFA items does it?

Good gad. Obviously not since it's an NFA item and ownership of an NFA may be transerred to a trust by other means.

You seriously can't read I said "non-nfa" and really don't understand that a 4473 is the document/process/mechanism used to transfer ownership of a non-nfa firearm? Completely unrelated to NFA firearms???

Now it's just getting stoopid.

 

[Mbeef61]

On the engraving thing…

My sig 400 tread pistol already has maker, city and state.

I assume the requirement for engraving MY name, my city and state are if I make the firearm.

Am I correct in that since mine already had a manufacturer, city and state that I do not need to engrave anything else?