E-Mail PROVES DOJ KNEW EVERYTHING ABOUT FAST AND FURIOUS!

[Jamie6.5]

Quote Originally Posted by svxr8dr View Post
Track all those guns? Who said anything about all those guns? They never had a plan in place to track a single weapon, not one, not ever.

Nor did they practice incompetence at all times. They worked feverishly to prevent the connection between F&F guns and USBP Agent Terry's murder from being disclosed.
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Which is exactly in line with every statement I've made on this thread. Read the posts.

The real problem lies in the administration trying to cover it up. Fast and Furious of itself shouldn't result in anything but some people losing their jobs. The coverup could wind up with some people going to jail for perjury/obstruction of justice.

I hate to have to remind you, but if the prez new, and has participated in/ordered ANY PART of the coverup, he must be impeached before we can send him to jail.

If the shoe fits,...
But first we have to get the arrogant S.O.B. to pony up with the truth.

 

[Misterbill]

I agree that whether it be drugs, money or whatever, you may let something walk in order to get a bigger fish, but in those cases there is a mechanism to retreive said items. This operation was put in place without concern or regard to where those weapons would go and what damage the cartels would do with them. This is not anything close to a tried an true investigative technique.

Actually you are wrong. There is very often no intent to recover contraband that's incidental to a larger investigation. It may be documented that they saw it, but contrary to what you might think, it ISN'T uncommon to let pretty decent sized shipments of drugs go by to the ether. You really think they track every ounce of a ten-pound deal when they're chasing a deal that will result in tons confiscated? They don't. Those drugs get sold and used.

The scale of this is 2000 guns. That's a tiny fraction of the guns recovered by the Mexicans every year. Perhaps they thought this was a worthy sacrifice. Who knows? Either way, there is gross incompetence. People should lose their jobs. -As in fired, not shuffled someplace else. But there is no crime here at all except what may fall out as a coverup.

 

[kenno]

In a perfect world, everybody takes their oaths of office seriously, tends to their knitting, and works hard as servants of We the People. Here's the world U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder lives in: "The notion that somehow or other this thing [the Gunwalker scandal] reaches into the upper levels of the Justice Department is something that . . . I don't think is supported by the facts. It's kind of something I think certain members of Congress would like to see, the notion that somehow or other high-level people in the department were involved. As I said, I don't think that is going to be shown to be the case &#8212; which doesn't mean that the mistakes were not serious." Not shown? Serious? U.S. Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry was murdered with an ATF-enabled gun. How do you reality check that kind of weaseling and hold those responsible responsible? Simple . . .
Appoint a Special Prosecutor.
The U.S. Constitution provides for checks and balances between the three, co-equal branches of government (Congress, Judiciary, Executive). Congress can investigate the Executive and Judiciary, The Executive can investigate just about anybody (through the Justice Department). And the Judiciary can go after the Executive and Legislative branches. Fair enough. But sometimes, politics gets in the way.

At the end of the 20th Century, a President with rock star popularity (that would be Clinton) had a number of, ahem, dubious ethical dealings which attracted the attention of Congress. This would have been no big deal, as long as Congress was run by the same party as the folks in charge over at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue.

But what happens when the loyal opposition takes over, as they did when Newt and his Contract With America guys took over Congress? Well, we have a clambake. Or to put it more specifically, a Congressional investigation.

Because one side wants to acuse the other of staging a politically-motivated witch hunt, Congress passed a law providing for the option to create a "special prosecutor" who would operate with absolute impunity, untouched by political influence. A prosecutor who could Get To The Bottom Of Things without making it look as if Torquemada had taken up residence in D.C. and was open for bidness.

The special prosecutor system, frankly, doesn't get around claims (from either side) of politically-influenced witch hunts. Just look at the ritual abuse heaped upon Kenneth Starr, special prosecutor of one William Jefferson Clinton. Wild Bill may or may not have been guilty of something &#8211; anything &#8211; in the Whitewater(gate) scandals &#8211; we'll likely never know. But one thing is indisputable. Clinton lied in front of a Grand Jury when questioned about his dalliance with Ms. Monica Lewinsky, White House intern, starry-eyed girl, and cigar aficionado.

Starr's investigation resulted in impeachment charges being brought against Clinton in the House. In the case of Impeachment, the House acts as a kind of Grand Jury, authorized to bring charges against the President. They did. The Senate then acts as both Judge and Jury in a trial that can result in the President's removal from office.

Clinton got off (legally &#8211; I won't speak in the euphemistic sense), largely due to a lack of will on the part of the Senate to nail Clinton for lying to a Grand Jury. The whole case largely brought the White House to a standstill and crippled the second term of Slick Willie & Company.

That brings us to the alphabet soup of agencies implicated in the mess known as Gunwalker: ATF, FBI, CIA, ICE, CPB, DHS, DoS, AG, and the DoJ. Wow. That's a lot of soup. But the ones that really count here, at least as far as an investigation goes, are "AG" and "DoJ."

It's hard to imagine the idea of "self-policing" working, when the suspicion of wrong-doing goes all the way up to America's Top Cop, Attorney General Eric Holder, and his Department of (in)Justice. Don't think Fast and Furious is enough to worry about? Howza about the whole Gibson GuitarGate? What about the "We're not going to prosecute in voter fraud cases" thing? See a pattern here?

Senator Grassley and Representative Issa have done a fine job of keeping the ATF mess from getting swept under the ObamaNation rug. But they can only do so much before they are pilloried for being biased due to party affiliation. [ED: See New York Times hit piece on Issa.] A Special Prosecutor can investigate without the encumbrance of ties to the Just-Us Department or the Executive Branch. He or she's got the power to kick down doors, take names, and walk out of the room with somebody's *** in their briefcase.

To uncover the full illegality that goes by the name of Gunwalker, to follow those guns wherever they lead, we need a special prosecutor. Right now.

Special Prosecutors don't come cheap. The whole Whitewatergate/Lewinsky mess didn't come cheap. But whereas the Clinton White House hunkered down in the bunker mentality and curtailed some of their more creative stabs at implementing their agenda, the Obama White House does not seem to be similarly encumbered. Things like the Gibson Guitar raids would indicate they're taking more of a "Damn the Torpedoes...Full Speed Ahead" strategy.

But this Gunwalker mess seems to grow by the hour. In the last two months, we've gone from "there's something rotten in the State of the ATF" to compelling evidence that nine major federal agencies were involved in activities that armed criminals that shot a federal law enforcement officer. And God knows who else. And God knows what else.

In the last three days, we've learned that the ATF enabled illegal gun purchases in Indiana. That the ATF and U.S. Attorney's office allowed a known grenade maker and gunsmith&#8212;a man who also converted semi-automatic rifles into submachine guns for Mexican drug cartels&#8212;to return to his craft south of the border. That the case against some 20 straw purchasers is collapsing like a house of cards.There's really only one office that has (as of yet) not been drug, kicking and screaming) into the eye of the storm &#8211; the Oval Office. And if you believe in the old axiom "where they're smoke, there's fire," you have to believe that things are getting a little hot over on Pennsylvania Avenue.

A Special Prosecutor can and would take this case and run with it. Unlike other investigations, they can go where the evidence leads, all the way to the top, if need be. It's probably the only thing that will really give the fine folks over at Justice a serious case of acid reflux. They can stonewall Congress, redact away, and hope things blow over. Even call "executive privilege" or "national security" when things get a little too hot. But a Special Prosecutor? Now THAT'S some power.

As Santayana was fond of saying, "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." Between Watergate, Whitewatergate and this current mess, it would seem that history is doing that self-fulfilling prophesy thing again. That may sound like great fun in a bread and circuses kinda way. But America actually face some serious problems right now. We need to clean house before we can put our house in order.

So it comes to this: how 'bout we put the pedal to the metal and get this over with, before this devolves into a quagmire that consumes the nation? Email your Congress critter now with a simple message: "Please appoint a Special Prosecutor to investigate all the crimes relating to the program conducted by The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives known as Operation Fast and Furious."

BTW recall when Cass Sunstein called on his followers to "Infiltrate Thier chatrooms"?

 

[svxr8dr]

Actually you are wrong. There is very often no intent to recover contraband that's incidental to a larger investigation. It may be documented that they saw it, but contrary to what you might think, it ISN'T uncommon to let pretty decent sized shipments of drugs go by to the ether. You really think they track every ounce of a ten-pound deal when they're chasing a deal that will result in tons confiscated? They don't. Those drugs get sold and used.

The scale of this is 2000 guns. That's a tiny fraction of the guns recovered by the Mexicans every year. Perhaps they thought this was a worthy sacrifice. Who knows? Either way, there is gross incompetence. People should lose their jobs. -As in fired, not shuffled someplace else. But there is no crime here at all except what may fall out as a coverup.

Please provide a link to any documented investigative technique from any American Law Enforcement agency where the recovery of goods used to catch bigger fish was not at least addressed in a plan of some sort. How about just one in writing?

 

[Riot]

Who needs a link? Are you actually unfamiliar with the practice of allowing crimes to be committed (and documented for later prosecution) as part of an investigation to catch bigger fish or more serious offenses? Seriously this is news to you?

I've said repeatedly that the whole thing was gross incompetence on ATFs part. For exactly the reason you state. there was no way in **** they could really expect to track all those guns. And I'm sure the ATF weenies thought up this brilliant idea to appease Holder's vendetta against American gun owners. -But nothing there constitutes a crime. Crappy police work with a stinkin political axe to grind (enough that Holder should be fired) but not a crime.

You realize that this was done several times, right? They tracked shipments of guns from their staw-buyer's purchases to Mexico...then did nothing. They didn't contact the Mexican authorities, they didn't stop future shipments, heck it wasn't until the BP agent was shot until they started making arrests! If that is, indeed, how the ATF conducts business then it is a poor way to do so.

 

[greydog111]

This is the largest pile of horsepucky I've read on the intarwebs all day. -Which is saying a lot.

Subvert the constitution? Which part? Since what the ATF does and how guns are regulated by the federal government is entirely constitutional as far as the Supreme Court has ruled, how is it exactly that they tried to subvert the constitution?

Pull your head out. You're half-arsed opinion of what the constitution means is worth diddly. They were trying to catch some gun-runners. They used a VERY commonly employed investigative technique to do it. The problem was that they let too many guns walk that they knew or should have known in advance they couldn't possibly track.

That's all anyone has really accused them of. Incompetence that wound up with a gun from the investigation being used to kill a BP agent. If you think that the only reason that BP agent was killed was because of the guns in fast and furious, you need to stop posting here and join the Brady Bunch. Because that's what they would say. (If only illegal guns hadn't walked form a gun store in the U.S. criminals NEVER would have obtained them another way!)

Treason? REALLY mister constitution? Perhaps you can explain how Fast and Furious "...levying War against [the United States] or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort.

I find it ironic how many people who wrap themselves up in the constitution are so often utterly ignorant of what it says, what it's been ruled to mean, etc. etc.

-And no one was apologizing for the ATF. I certainly wasn't. They aren't accused of committing a crime except possibly in a coverup. The initial acts were incompetence, nothing more. -Not that this is new for the agency whose name should be the title of my favorite convenience store.

Let's ponder. Coverup=Conspiracy. Incompetence=Malfeasance. Major crimes and subverting the constitutional process. Multiple felonies. Treason? Quite possibly. Holder needs to go! ATF a rogue agency at best. DOJ? Out of control and in the bag for Barry Soetero.

 

[Gunner3456]

Read more...

EXCLUSIVE: Third Gun Linked to 'Fast and Furious' Identified at Border Agent's Murder Scene


"...Sources say emails support their contention that the FBI concealed evidence to protect a confidential informant. Sources close to the Terry case say the FBI informant works inside a major Mexican cartel and provided the money to obtain the weapons used to kill Terry.

Unlike the two AK-style assault weapons found at the scene, the third weapon could more easily be linked to the informant. To prevent that from happening, sources say, the third gun "disappeared."

 

[Dave Workman]

Read more...

EXCLUSIVE: Third Gun Linked to 'Fast and Furious' Identified at Border Agent's Murder Scene


"...Sources say emails support their contention that the FBI concealed evidence to protect a confidential informant. Sources close to the Terry case say the FBI informant works inside a major Mexican cartel and provided the money to obtain the weapons used to kill Terry.

Unlike the two AK-style assault weapons found at the scene, the third weapon could more easily be linked to the informant. To prevent that from happening, sources say, the third gun "disappeared."

I weighed in on this too.
It's been a rather interesting couple of days.

Third Fast & Furious gun at Terry murder scene covered up

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Now, regarding 'Misterbill's' reaction...as a guy who has been reporting about this for eight months, it's not horse pucky at all to suggest there is a major criminal situation here...unless one has horse pucky between the ears.

The developments in the past 24 hours have been remarkable. A third gun that was "disappeared" by the FBI; Issa and Grassley now taking the investigation inside the White House...This thing is taking on the dimensions of Watergate II.

It may have started as incompetence, but it has gone far beyond that now.
Obstruction
Possible perjury
Evidence tampering

I don't think treason is involved, but criminal conspiracy does not seem that far-fetched. A lot of people seem to have been in on this at one level or another. They can't all be collectively incompetent.

 

[Bigfoot]

One more thing, albeit minor.

In addition to the emails obtained by Fox News, an audio recording from a Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives agent investigating the Terry case seems to confirm the existence of a third weapon. In that conversation, the agent refers to an "SKS assault rifle out of Texas" found at the Terry murder scene south of Tucson.

The ATF agent doesn't know the difference between an assault rifle(capable of full auto fun) and a SKS. These clowns aren't even competent in their assigned duties. No, I don't want them running stings, as if that was their intent.

 

[Gunner3456]

I hate to have to remind you, but if the prez new, and has participated in/ordered ANY PART of the coverup, he must be impeached before we can send him to jail.

If the shoe fits,...
But first we have to get the arrogant S.O.B. to pony up with the truth.

If Obama is found to have committed any crimes here, I have no doubt that the House would impeach him. However, it then takes a vote of 2/3 of the Senate, or 67 Senators to convict him. Senators would vote along party lines and that would never happen. That's what happened to Clinton. The House impeached him, but the Senate didn't convict him - not enough votes.

 

[Hawaiian]

Obama, Clinton and Holder were all involved in media discussions about their discussions with the President of Mexico over the guns coming from the US into Mexico.
Then they sent more guns to Mexico to hoping support their position. It backfired. Plain and simple.

 

[Father of four]

It was all illegal!

It is WRONG for ANY government official to facilitate or permit the breaking of Our laws.

People go to jail for that!

 

[wjv]

If Obama is found to have committed any crimes here, I have no doubt that the House would impeach him. However, it then takes a vote of 2/3 of the Senate, or 67 Senators to convict him. Senators would vote along party lines and that would never happen. That's what happened to Clinton. The House impeached him, but the Senate didn't convict him - not enough votes.

You never know. Lots of Democrats DON'T want Obama on the 2012 ticket. They believe that he has done great damage to their party. They could:

- Pick who they want as their next candidate
- Have that person lead the charge for impeachment
- Have that person run on an anti-corruption platform. . "See, I was the one that got Obama convicted, not the Republicans"

Far Fetched? Yes. . .
Impossible? No. . .

 

[rufus]

Compare this to the Watergate. At least Nixon had the nads to accept responsibility and resign. The community organizer should too.

 

[Dave Workman]

One more thing, albeit minor.



The ATF agent doesn't know the difference between an assault rifle(capable of full auto fun) and a SKS. These clowns aren't even competent in their assigned duties. No, I don't want them running stings, as if that was their intent.

Well, a very minor point, and not one that is going to shake this story off its foundation. I've given up trying to correct these guys because it has little to do with the real story, which is government-sanctioned gun trafficking, and trafficking without sanctions....

Which brings us around to:

More guns found on border, more murders tied to Fast & Furious

A small cache of weapons, including six semi-automatic rifles, a grenade launcher, a rocket launcher and material that appears to be plastic explosives were recovered along the Rio Grande River in Texas by the Border Patrol Tuesday, according to Reuters.

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[Father of four]

I hope We The People make them the servants accountable.

 

[One-Eyed Ross]

I hope We The People make them the servants accountable.

Only if people start voting...and change some of the silly laws that prevent third party candidates from running