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Curious - people's claim to incredible shots

Discussion in 'Rifle Discussion' started by DrCox, Feb 18, 2011.

  1. DrCox

    DrCox Hillsboro Member

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    So while browsing the forums for random subjects (most recently SHTF subjects) I have noticed that alot of people when defending thier rifles often include thier own ability with said rifle. Most noteably I have seen that people are claiming over 500 yard shots with iron sights consitantly. One was claiming 800 yards with M1 with iron sights.

    So, First, I am no marksman. I struggle to hit targets at 200 yards with bench support and iron sights. My biggest issue is sight picture and target obscuration. Even with my pistol It is capable of shooting 150-200 yards but the massive front sight blocks out anything smaller than a bobcat at 100... (Ruger .44 Mag Super Blackhawk)

    My question is, how can people be nailing targets at 500+ yard with iron sights consistantly with good groups? I would love to be this accurate but again, at that range I cant even see the target since I have to aim high to compensate for bullet drop...

    Suggestions on this would be awesome because as many of you have pointed out, scopes will break, but when you need them iron sights will always be reliable.

    Thanks,

    -Dr
     
  2. The Cheese

    The Cheese somewhere special Member

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    was it the army or marines that trained with garands to be able to hit to 600yds? Or it was to qualify or something. Im not military and not really up on my history so I wouldn't know. I know the swiss trained to 800 or 900yds (one of the many reasons hiter left them alone). But if you are just ringing steel, man sized silhouette targets I can see the 500yd hits as probable assuming it was a supported time taken sort of thing. There are also high power matches that take it out to 1k open sight, but those are with tricked out guns and shooters that are extremely well practiced. I will say that the addition of even 3x magnification seriously increase my hit probability several fold past 200yds. Personally I wouldn't try to to shoot past 200yds with irons if the shot mattered. But I also think it would be fun to train with the garand or other old school rifle to see if I could pull off 600yd shots like they used to have to do. Might have to go get a K31 and find a place to shoot to 800yds.
     
  3. deadeye

    deadeye Albany,OR. Moderator Staff Member

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    "Beware the man with one gun, he knows how to use it". While most claims can be chalked up to internet testosterone there are plenty of people that can show you the proper use of iron sights and prove it is more than feasable. I'm not saying at 800 yrds your going to have a 3" group but a man walking is going to get hit and taken out of the fight and that is the primary reason for such training. It all depends on the operator and how in tune with the rifle they are.
     
  4. madcratebuilder

    madcratebuilder Ardenwald, OR Well-Known Member

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    You well find that internet accuracy and real world accuracy are different realities. Hitting a man size target with irons at 500yds is one thing, hitting a 6" target is another.
     
  5. Kimber Custom

    Kimber Custom Vancouver, WA Bronze Vendor Bronze Vendor

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    Next time Appleseed comes to town check it out. They will teach you to shoot within 4MOA out to 400 yards. That is man size (16" groups) at 400 yards. They will also cover things like using iron sights to gauge distance, the riflemans trajectory and above all how to use your body/sling to build a proper shooting platform.

    The training takes place at 25 yards but the fundamentals are there and you can take that to 'real world' distance shooting.
     
  6. The Quiet Man

    The Quiet Man rural Washington County, Oregon Active Member

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    My Army (1970's era shooting the M16A1 with iron sights) trained folks out to 350 meters in Basic Training. Of course, those were young eyes but everyone managed to qualify before leaving Basic Training, and you couldn't do that without being able to hit at 350 meters. We also fired the M14 in (Army) competition out to 1000 meters with open sights. Groups? The (1000 meter range) bullseye was 5 feet in diameter so you have to use the term loosely. That said, you wouldn't want to be shot at by the guys who were really good... even at 1000 meters. Even I managed to not completely embarrass myself every once in a while... and I was/am a left-eye dominant, right handed, non-competition grade shooter doing it for fun :)

    In short, nearly anyone can be trained to shoot well at distance. I'm sure some of you young guys with more recent Army or Marine training can give us more current information but I expect it will back up what was the norm in the 1970's.
     
  7. just dan

    just dan PDX Active Member

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    iron sights, grandpa's M1... damn close to 900 yards. oh, wait... consistently? well... if i don't mention all the rounds before that hit that missed... or the rounds after that missed...
    ok, i could hit it once in a while :)

    my uncle pretty consistently would hit that 900 yard 1' round iron target. he'd not talk about his training much, but he was a vietnam vet. his buddy who was a sniper at the same time (and the father of the girl i was dating), would with almost total consistently nail it. further targets with a scope. (i was always scared to try anything with his daughter, and always, always had her home on time :) )
     
  8. DAB

    DAB ydnaS nogerO New Member

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    Like the guy that stopped and ask an old Hippie how to get to Carnegie Hall. The old hippie just snapped his fingers and said "Practice man, practice".

    DAB
     
  9. DrCox

    DrCox Hillsboro Member

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    Some good info above, thanks guys!
     
  10. mjbskwim

    mjbskwim Salmon,Idaho Well-Known Member

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    It would seem,in theory,that as long as you have the righty tighty and the lefty tighty too,then you worry about hold over.So if your spotter tells you you hit the target,you use the same hold over the second time.

    And there are some people that are just naturally good with a weapon.

    Some don't seem to think you can post pictures of targets to back up your claim. I mean if you're going to tell everyone,then show them too

    My eyes like optics.
     
  11. sweetbeard

    sweetbeard Beavertown OreGUN! New Member

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    MARINE.... nuff said.. take any fool out at 500yds Iron sight no problem.
     
  12. Jamie6.5

    Jamie6.5 Western OR Well-Known Member

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    With a rifle, you need to learn to adjust for, and use, the 6:00 (six O-clock) hold. The reason is exactly as you stated,... You can't hit what you can't see.
    There is no "bead" on the front sight post of those old M1s and M14/M1As. When sighting, you align the front post so the bull appears to rest on top of the post.
    You center the bull in the peep, resting atop the post. With the eye's variations in focal range, your "sight picture" will resemble a golf ball on a tee, centered in a ring of shadow. As range increases, the "golf ball" will shrink of course, but that becomes an aid to ranging when the bull is of a known size. Adjust elevation on the peep sight/ghost ring accordingly.

    When the sights are properly adjusted, hits/groups will tighten right up with practice.
    It can be done with pistols too, but with a rear "buckhorn" instead of a ghost ring or peep aperture, elevation calculations become a matter of ranging accuracy and experience with that particular setup, Ie, how far above the top of the buckhorn is the top of the post.

    The beaded front post on sporting rifles is supposed to be placed on the target area you intend to hit. That's fine out to 100-200 yds, but beyond that, it will cover all but the largest bullseye.
     
  13. Spitpatch

    Spitpatch Forest Grove, Oregon Well-Known Member

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    Jamie has it. I'm usually long-winded, but will condense his reply: If you can see your front sight, and you can see your target, and your gun is capable of the consistency needed, you can train yourself to hit at long range.

    And, don't forget Elmer Keith's deliberate and witnessed killing of a mule deer at 600 yards with a .44 pistol.
     
  14. DrCox

    DrCox Hillsboro Member

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    Ok, Let me be sure I understand the last two posts. I need to sight in the rifle so that I am lining up the intended target at longer ranges to sit atop my front site? So when shooting closer target (not having to compensate for bullet drop) i would have the target sitting higher above the front sight (IE adjusting to shoot under the target) as opposed to sighting in short range and raising the rifle to compensate for bullet drop thereby obscuring the target?

    -DrCox
     
  15. Jamie6.5

    Jamie6.5 Western OR Well-Known Member

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    Short answer: Yes.
    The best solution for me was/is to find the Mid-Range Trajectory (MRT) or Maximum Point Blank Range (MPBR) of the round you are using. In my DCM (now the CMP) days that was 250~270 yards IIRC.
    So, from the muzzle to 270 yards, the bullet's POI (point of impact) was no more than 3" above or below the line of sight. 230 yards is where I set my zero.

    This kept me "on" a 6" target (without making adjustments) elevation wise, to just beyond 250 yards. When you get to the point where you know how large a 12" bull is, when compared to the width of the post, at a given range, you can begin to adjust the elevation on the peep sight for additional range(s), beyond your mid-range trajectory. Hold-over will work to a certain extent, say to 300-310 yards (if the MRT is 270), by holding so only the top half of the 12" bull is showing at the top of the post.
    But again, you can't hit what you can't see, so at least a portion of the bull must be visible at the top of the post.

    But I always dialed in clicks as ranges increased. My sights were the National Match version, that used 1/2MOA clicks.
    I believe the standard military sight clicks are one MOA.

    The simplicity of this system comes with man-sized, man-shaped targets/silhouettes. The Human head is roughly 8-10" in diameter. Using the 6:00 hold on the head will get you a hit on the head or body from the muzzle to Waaayyy out there, as it provides for 30" or so of bullet drop. That equates to around 450-500 yds without making adjustments. (using the M2ball ammo we did)

    The first time I saw people hitting silhouettes every time at those ranges I thought, "NO WAY!" Then my coach taught me how it was done, and it came easily.
     
  16. saxon

    saxon springfield Active Member

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    you MUST remember the M1 and the say 1903 and 03A3
    have sights that can adjustso that you have the right sight picture at those range's
    so yes you can shhot a decent group.
    this is not just guestimating like how far over should i hold with my scope
     
  17. Jamie6.5

    Jamie6.5 Western OR Well-Known Member

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    Funny you should bring up those two guns. I used my coach's 03-A3 to win my first Garand using the 6:00 hold method. Then my bro bought me an NM Garand. But when the wind came up I still preferred the '03 for some reason.
    Coach said it was just a confidence thing.
     
  18. i8asquirrel

    i8asquirrel Keizer, oregon Member

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    Certainly it can be done, I remember shooting long range with peep sights in Basic training also. But you have to no that loads of the long shot stories you hear are just that. I have heard many tails of 1000 yd elk kills only to find out later that the animal was fired at seven or eight times. Thats not impressive, I myself get far more excited watching one of my buddies Bust a Sage Rat at 350 or 400 yds. just my 2 cents.
     
  19. chainsaw

    chainsaw East side of Or. Active Member

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    I agree with i8asquirrel,no one brags on the 10 shots it took to make the one bragging shot.I once shot a 12''x12" plate at 400 yrds with my .44 mag pistol.It took 5 shots to hit it,then I shot at it 20 more times without a hit.Should I be bragging about the 400 yrd pistol shot I made?no way.
     
  20. DrCox

    DrCox Hillsboro Member

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    Perhapsthis is why Semi and fully automatic weapons were invented along with high capcity magazines!! Fantastic hit by pure probability. :)