Conflicting reloading resourses

[TM-Salem]

Can you use load data from old manuals? Heres the thing i run into all the time. Load data for the 30-30 for example.

lyman 49 and 48 data is the same but lyman 44th is way different and if you follow it, you will blow yourself up according to the 48th and 49th.

the 48th says IMR-3031 max charge is 28.5 for 2145fps @ 2.540 COAL tested with 24" barrel. The 44th has the max charge at 33.5 for 2347 @ 2.550 COAL with a 21" barrel.

And look at the IMR-4895 loads. 48th says 30.0 for max. 44th says 36 is max. and Factory Duplication Load is 35.

Reloading with OCD is not conducive to my sanity.

My Hornady manual says max charge is 31.4 at 2.550

Thats my rant for the day

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[aasbra]

Load data for older manuals I've reviewed often has higher charges than more recent published sources. There is even some notable variation between recent/current load manuals for using the same or very similar components. I typically review load data from several reputable sources when working up a new load, and as they say, start low, work your way up in increments until you approach the max published load from a source you are comfortable with, watching for signs of concerns/over-pressure.

 

[arakboss]

Can you use load data from old manuals? Heres the thing i run into all the time. Load data for the 30-30 for example.

lyman 49 and 48 data is the same but lyman 44th is way different and if you follow it, you will blow yourself up according to the 48th and 49th.

the 48th says IMR-3031 max charge is 28.5 for 2145fps @ 2.540 COAL tested with 24" barrel. The 44th has the max charge at 33.5 for 2347 @ 2.550 COAL with a 21" barrel.

And look at the IMR-4895 loads. 48th says 30.0 for max. 44th says 36 is max. and Factory Duplication Load is 35.

Reloading with OCD is not conducive to my sanity.

My Hornady manual says max charge is 31.4 at 2.550

Thats my rant for the day

View attachment 1880732 View attachment 1880733

Remember they have more attorneys now than they did back then.

 

[Koda]

Can you use load data from old manuals?

I dont, but maybe if my powder was purchased in the same timeframe as the manual.

I get my load data free from the mfg online from the bullet mfg, powder mfg second. I compare and any discrepancies I start with the lowest one and run a pressure ladder for my first test to look for pressure signs. After that, its normal load dev.

 

[bcp]

Better test methods now. Some old manuals used primer appearance, etc. This was especially misleading for lower pressure cartridges.

Always keep in mind that the manual reports their results using their firearms and their components. Yours are different. Start low.

Bruce

 

[ma96782]

Say it this way.......

Say that.......
I my trusted my published loading manual. So then, I trust the load data. Of course, there is no harm in checking load data against another source.

But then, you should also take note of the fine print. The test platforms could/would most likely be different and the tests could/would/might have been carried out under different circumstances. Not to mention, that different components and substitutions will make a difference (some more so, than with others). IIRC........Speer even went as far as to state that their manual was tested for their brand of bullets. And changing the bullet (with another brand) could be dangerous. Whatever. I broke that SAFETY RULE/WARNING really quickly.

As for IF the manual was old?
Yeah well, so is my powder. But even if it's not "old powder".....I'd use the data as long as the powder is the same name branded stuff. Rrrright........some powders like Unique, Bulls Eye, IMR 4895, W231, etc..... has been around for ages.

So, with that all being said.....
When using a NEW load.......
Always, start low and work your way up.

That one piece of advice, might just be published with ALL of the load data that you'll be likely to find out there.

Aloha, Mark

PS......load manual advice on COAL (in a lever gun). Yeah.....it's fine to start with a recommendation. Though I've found that for optimum lever action fun......playing a bit with the COAL might just improve the functioning.

 

[dangerranger60]

I always look for 3 sources of data when I'm working on a new to me load. With a single source I will not know if it was a mistake, has a misplaced decimal point, or just copied wrong. With three independent sources I have the ability to see that all are near the same result. How's that for OCD? DR

If you want to see a wide difference look at old and new performance loads for 38 super and .357 mag. DR

 

[Dozer99]

I've been using Lyman 44th edition for years. The newer reloading manuals are dumbed down to match most factory ammo loads.

For my 30-30 load, I use 150 grain round nose on top or 31grains of IMR3031. I have run into the same issue when loading for my 7mm Mauser. New manuals say I'll die if I use 40gr's of IMR4895 under a 139 grain SPBT!

Well, I didn't die.

 

[Quirt Evans]

Better test methods now. Some old manuals used primer appearance, etc. This was especially misleading for lower pressure cartridges. Bruce

This is perhaps the answer with the broadest coverage.
New digital/computer methods of pressure elaluation are far more accurate than simply looking at and measuring physical signs.
Not to say one should not heed obvious signs of overpressure, as always, start low.

 

[TM-Salem]

thanks everyone, i know to start low and work up looking for over pressure signs. this was more of a WTH question.

But if the Lyman 44th is correct and Factory 30-30 loads were made of 35gr of IMR-4895 back when the manual was published, then why werent everyone Marlin leverguns blowing up in their faces if now they say that the max is 30?

I just see thing like this and think to my self WTH... so i look to see if someone out there is using this data that is above what they consider "safe" today. Is it better testing and equipment today or like someone else said... More Lawyers?

 

[aasbra]

Is it better testing and equipment today or like someone else said... More Lawyers?

Both, I suspect.

When I got started loading my Dad commented on how, over time, published load data had been reduced. He noted that high end loads for several calibers he loaded in the 1990s based on then contemporary sources became well above the max load that is published 20-25 years later.

While there are some comfortable testing the "limits" of the published max loads, I personally don't like to push things. Seems likely any manufacturing defects or fatigue/wear are more likely to be exposed and turn into a safety issue. I like keeping my fingers, eyes, and firearms in good, working condition.

 

[Caveman Jim]

I use the Lee#2 manual and haven't had any problems but then again I don't load to max.
I try not to overthink things.

 

[Stomper]

I've been using Lyman 44th edition for years. The newer reloading manuals are dumbed down to match most factory ammo loads.

For my 30-30 load, I use 150 grain round nose on top or 31grains of IMR3031. I have run into the same issue when loading for my 7mm Mauser. New manuals say I'll die if I use 40gr's of IMR4895 under a 139 grain SPBT!

Well, I didn't die.

Maybe you did die and you're in Elysium and don't know it…. causing you to say, "OMG this is as good as it gets"?!

 

[Dillon1000]

Can you use load data from old manuals? Heres the thing i run into all the time. Load data for the 30-30 for example.

lyman 49 and 48 data is the same but lyman 44th is way different and if you follow it, you will blow yourself up according to the 48th and 49th.

the 48th says IMR-3031 max charge is 28.5 for 2145fps @ 2.540 COAL tested with 24" barrel. The 44th has the max charge at 33.5 for 2347 @ 2.550 COAL with a 21" barrel.

And look at the IMR-4895 loads. 48th says 30.0 for max. 44th says 36 is max. and Factory Duplication Load is 35.

Reloading with OCD is not conducive to my sanity.

My Hornady manual says max charge is 31.4 at 2.550

Thats my rant for the day

View attachment 1880732 View attachment 1880733

ARAKBOS is right, in the new Manuals the Attorneys have told Venders to back off sometimes as much as 10%
so as to cut back on Lawsuits due to ever pressure. I have some of the old manuals going back to the 50's. Not the same. Also Powder has changed burn rates a bit.

 

[gmerkt]

But if the Lyman 44th is correct and Factory 30-30 loads were made of 35gr of IMR-4895 back when the manual was published, then why werent everyone Marlin leverguns blowing up in their faces if now they say that the max is 30?

Lyman didn't say the factory load was made with IMR 4895, they said a factory "equivalent" load, which wasn't necessarily IMR 4895. The factory load may or may not consist of a propellant available as a canister powder for reloaders.

As to why weren't people blowing up their guns back in the day on these loads. When proofed at the factory, modern guns are fired with overcharge proof loads that are well in excess of any factory ammo made. So there is a kind of built-in margin of safety in the gun. You can fire max loads all day long, maybe even rifle loads a grain or two over max., and it's not likely to blow the gun up. The issue is more like, is the load apt to blow up an older firearm that wasn't necessarily made to "modern" standards. Most factory ammo boxes have words like, "These cartridges are adapted to and intended for arms in good condition originally chambered and designed for this cartridge." The "good condition" proviso keeps them clean for any "reasonable" use of the ammo.

 

[nammac]

I look to the bullet manufacturer and powder manufacturer for load data, confirming with a few of the load manuals I have on hand like Hornady and Speer. It's always good to go do a sanity check, look for consensus among the load data.

Haven't blown myself up yet and I've been reloading since the mid 80's or so…

 

[arakboss]

Lyman didn't say the factory load was made with IMR 4895, they said a factory "equivalent" load, which wasn't necessarily IMR 4895. The factory load may or may not consist of a propellant available as a canister powder for reloaders.

As to why weren't people blowing up their guns back in the day on these loads. When proofed at the factory, modern guns are fired with overcharge proof loads that are well in excess of any factory ammo made. So there is a kind of built-in margin of safety in the gun. You can fire max loads all day long, maybe even loads a grain or two over max., and it's not likely to blow the gun up. The issue is more like, is the load apt to blow up an older firearm that wasn't necessarily made to "modern" standards. Most factory ammo boxes have words like, "These cartridges are adapted to and intended for arms in good condition originally chambered and designed for this cartridge." The "good condition" proviso keeps them clean for any "reasonable" use of the ammo.

"You can fire max loads all day long, maybe even loads a grain or two over max."


Except in a Glock 20

 

[gmerkt]

"You can fire max loads all day long, maybe even loads a grain or two over max."


Except in a Glock 20

I should've included the words, "in rifle cartridges," because the cartridge under consideration was a .30-30. "A grain or two over max." does not apply to handgun cartridges.

 

[quneur]

Marlin and Winchester could probably handle the pressures but what about those Brazilian (or Spanish) firearms back when the 44th was published? If a Brazilian gun blew up, they probably blamed the manufacturer and not the ammunition.

 

[P7M13]

It doesn't matter what the max published load is.
When I do a rifle work-up / ladder test, I'll skew my charges so they start above minimum and run past maximum, watching for pressure signs.
It is rare that I ever find a node near the maximum charge (or the minimum either). Many times I have stopped the ladder test below max charges due to pressure signs - flattened or cratered primers, heavy bolt lift, or pierced primers.
IMO, it's your gun, chamber, cartridge and chosen bullet in combination that determine your max.