Click, no bang with 223 handloaded round

[clueless]

While shooting some handloaded 223 rem in an AR, I had one round that did not fire. After ejecting the round, I could see that the primer had a good strike and the head of the case was blackened. Later, I pulled the bullet and found that the case was charged normally. I popped the primer out and confirmed that it did actually go off. The big questions are: 1) why the main charge did not ignite, and 2) why was the head of the case blackened ?

The case had an "FC" headstamp and had been swaged with a Dillon Superswage. The primer pocket and flash hole looked good in every respect and passed the "go" side of a primer pocket gauge. It would not allow the "no-go" end of the gauge to fit in at all. I tried to wipe soot off the case head and clean the flash hole with a Qtip to inspect the metal better. Attached picture is after that. The struck end of the primer was totally clean and I could not see any defects even under a microscope. The charge was 24.1gr N140 under a Sierra 7177. Primer was a Remington 7 1/2. Both primer and powder are fresh.

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[bcp]

Maybe lint in the flash hole? Now burnt up without a trace.

Maybe tumbler grit in flash hole?

Bruce

 

[Dillon1000]

It almost looks like the primer was upside down. From the coloration
on the three ports none of the flame got through. Faulty Primer

 

[clueless]

An obstruction in the flash hole would explain it but it wasn't tumbler grit since I only tumble wet with SS pins. I question the primer too. Might add that it was a compressed charge. N140 is not very dense and the 7177 is a long bullet, about 1.06". This primer / bullet / powder and charge / OAL is straight from Sierra's manual, it is in fact their accuracy load.

 

[Dillon1000]

Using N140 would be a compressed load. Use Mag primers with that
load. Faster Burn into the powder
Also cut the crimp out don't swage it. If you think about it swaging moves the brass from around the primer pocket to the out side.
Your face is no longer flat against the bolt face. If you are looking for
accuracy that's not going to help.

 

[Pepe-lepew]

Are the primers of new origin and stored properly? Only issue I had with bad primers was some old primer I got for free that looked like the had mold. They consistently hang fired.

Was the powder discolored? If it was you know heat and pressure from the primer got to the powder but was not enough to ignite it. I have had this issue with small case fill in large cases where the primer did not build pressure.

Did something plug the flash hole? The primer leaked past the cup like it couldn't discharge into the case.

N140 is a stick powder and the small case and case fill should make it light easily.

 

[DunRanull]

Better get hold of Bill Shatner- sounds like a case for "The UnXplained"... Never seen or even heard of the like before... Ive had dud primers but never one that went "pop" and didnt ignite the charge ..

 

[P7M13]

Maybe lint in the flash hole? Now burnt up without a trace.

Maybe tumbler grit in flash hole?

Bruce

This was my thought also, but it might have been a tumbling pin. They're sometimes pretty stubborn about coming out of small cases. I'll try to get them out before drying in the oven, and afterward too. I do always get a few stragglers out of the cases after drying.

 

[drstrangelove]

Primers have been in such short supply that QC may have slipped. Short of a piece or cleaning media stuck in the flash hole,, or a backwards installed primer, it must be a bad primer. Any possibility of oil contamination of the primer?

 

[quneur]

Is the primer pocket perfectly round? How about the primer? Gas is escaping somewhere.

Otherwise, my only other thought is wet powder filling the flash hole preventing ignition but I would think the primer would have pushed itself out as far as possible.

 

[JustShoot]

my Best guess average 'for me' having Dude Primer, is about 1 every 5 years .
I just had dude yesterday shooting 9mm ( glock ). I hand feed it back in for another striker hit, and ZERO pop . When I get these, I just chalk it up having a Bad Anvil .
- Bad Anvil or deformed/damaged in manufacturing .
- Primer seat depth, to deep .
- No Primer compound, in Primer . or contaminated compound .
- High round count in weapon, time to change-out worn firing Pin or weak/worn spring .
- ?
.
.

 

[gmerkt]

The soot left on the case head from primer leakage suggests an obstruction of some sort. The primer flash couldn't pass into the body of the case, so could only blow back around the edge of the seated primer. But OP didn't find such when he took the cartridge apart. There is another possibility. That is, there was a defect in the primer cup that allowed the primer burn to leak out the side somewhere. This redirection of the flash could vent out around the edge of the primer, and cause insufficient burn to light the powder. OP said he looked at the primer under a microscope, so this idea may not be correct either.

You shouldn't need a magnum primer to light a stick powder. I've never seen a blow-back out of a primer like that on a simple failure to ignite with an otherwise good primer.

My own experience with Remington primers, especially the newly made ones that have come out post bankruptcy under Vista Outdoor hasn't been good. First of all, they have a different classification system that results in some that are nearly useless for many modern reloaders. Second, they are the smallest diameter primers in the industry and fit loose in some brass.

Third, I suspect but cannot verify that Rem. primer cups are inferior to CCI. Based on an older study, Rem. and CCI are both supposedly .025 thick on comparable small rifle primers. I say older, because this study was done before Vista Outdoor took over Rem. ammunition. AND: Thickness isn't the whole story, because there is also potential variation in the strength of the material. It has to be hard enough to withstand certain pressures, but soft enough to take a firing pin strike. It's only my opinion, but I think Rem. primer cups as currently made may be softer than comparable products. I say this because the primer strikes I've looked at look like they may be softer metal. Example, primer back flow into Glock firing pin aperture. Newly-made No. 7-1/2's that I've fired in .223 show very sharp edges where the firing pin has struck, suggesting an easily deformed cup.

In particular, do not buy Rem. No. 1-1/2 for anything more powerful than target loads of .38 Special. Don't buy Rem. No. 6-1/2 for anything more powerful than .22 Hornet. The Rem. 7-1/2 is not a magnum primer.

I rarely have misfires. But just this past week, out of 50 9mm Luger pistol cartridges primed with newer Rem., two failed to ignite. In otherwise identical, same headstamp brass. Using an otherwise tried and true load. In my experience with CCI and Win. primers, this kind of experience is rare.

I was never a big fan of Rem. primers. Mainly, pre-Covid, pre-ammo famine, they always cost a dollar or two more per brick for no good reason. I've only bought Rem. primers in the past couple of years because when bought, they were the only kind available.

The above is simply my opinion and not absolute. It may have some merit, or it may be complete poppycock.

 

[ron]

I was never a big fan of Rem. primers. Mainly, pre-Covid, pre-ammo famine, they always cost a dollar or two more per brick for no good reason. I've only bought Rem. primers in the past couple of years because when bought, they were the only kind available.

A pole on the National Match Competition Forum lists the 7 1/2 Remington as the #1 primer used by competitors.
The Rem. 7 1/2 are by far the most popular primer for Highpower rifle competition shooting. The 77 SMK and
24.1 of N140 is a popular load that I have been using for several years now. I would agree with others about
the flash hole plugged or a bad primer. It does happen. I have never had a bad 7 1/2 Rem. primer but had some
Winchester large rifle primers fail.

 

[Certaindeaf]

Be thankful the primer didn't go off normally, jamming the bullet into the throat creating an obstructed bore and then the powder charge igniting.

 

[Stomper]

Better get hold of Bill Shatner- sounds like a case for "The UnXplained"... Never seen or even heard of the like before... Ive had dud primers but never one that went "pop" and didnt ignite the charge ..

They're talkin' problems with primers, not tribbles…..

 

[Dozer99]

A Remington 7 1/2 should have at the least pushed the bullet out of the case mouth if it was correctly filled with priming material (ask me how I know).

So, my guess is the primer was bad or under charged.

 

[Certaindeaf]

A Remington 7 1/2 should have at the least pushed the bullet out of the case mouth if it was correctly filled with priming material (ask me how I know).

So, my guess is the primer was bad or under charged.

And or perhaps as has been suggested, the swaged pocket pucker combined with not fully seating the primer.

 

[Dillon1000]

And or perhaps as has been suggested, the swaged pocket pucker combined with not fully seating the primer.

Just a thought, If you look close at the picture you can see where the top side of the brass took more leakage than the bottom. Also looking inside the primer cup more of the same. The primer cup is not round due to swage off center. No brass is perfect, there are hard and soft area's in most Reg. brass. And you can see the pucker That I talked about.
Cutting the primer pocket on Military brass is a must for reloading due to the punch ring around the primer to keep it tight during auto fire.
And it's been said that there is no need to use Mag. primers.
That is true, it has been my understanding that the mag. primers throw the flame or spark more into the center of the charge thereby creating a more uniform powder burn. But I am trying to figure out why was a swage being used on a piece of civilian brass.

 

[Mikej]

But I am trying to figure out why was a swage being used on a piece of civilian brass.

I can tell you why "I" use a RCBS primer pocket swage on .223 and 5.56 brass. Because when processing mixed fired brass it's quicker to just swage all of them.

 

[clueless]

Just a thought, If you look close at the picture you can see where the top side of the brass took more leakage than the bottom. Also looking inside the primer cup more of the same. The primer cup is not round due to swage off center. No brass is perfect, there are hard and soft area's in most Reg. brass. And you can see the pucker That I talked about.
Cutting the primer pocket on Military brass is a must for reloading due to the punch ring around the primer to keep it tight during auto fire.
And it's been said that there is no need to use Mag. primers.
That is true, it has been my understanding that the mag. primers throw the flame or spark more into the center of the charge thereby creating a more uniform powder burn. But I am trying to figure out why was a swage being used on a piece of civilian brass.

First thing: Thanks to all for your comments and sharing of knowledge and experience.

With regard to why swaging this brass, it was because it had a crimped primer. All my FC and LC brass has a circular crimp ring. It is visible in the picture of the case head. It is not unusual for the crimp ring to be off center.

I don't own a tool that can cut out the crimp, Only a Lee ACP swage and the Dillon SuperSwage. The latter seems to work very well in terms of restoring a well formed primer pocket. I tried to measure the primer pocket on this specific piece of brass with the inside jaws of a set of calipers. If pushed all the way to the bottom, it was a remarkably consistent .1725". Pulled out about half way, it was a consistent .173".

I measured the primer diameter at .174. A new primer from the same container was also .174, as well as other fired primers from that same batch of rounds. I also spot checked some CCI #41 and Fed GM205MAR. All were the same .174 diameter, which is in spec.

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I also tried to measure the wall thickness of the primers, expecting something in the range 20-25 mils. To measure, I removed the anvil from one of the other spent Remington primers and made an effort to remove deposits. The attached pic shows the thinnest area that I found. I made some measurements on a GM205MAR too. This is the Federal primer made specifically to minimize likelihood of a slam fire in an ARs. I went through the same steps and the numbers were very similar, maybe 1 mil thicker on average. On a live CCI #41, I attempted to ( gingerly ) take a reading at the exposed edge in three places and saw 18-20 mils. My point here is only to suggest that there wasn't a wild difference between any of them.

I also checked primer and pocket depth. With just calipers, I took several measurements of the pocket depth and got numbers from .117 to .120". I checked one each of some new primers and saw .1215 for the Rem, .1195 for the CCI, and .122" for the GM205MAR. All these numbers would be in spec. Note that these numbers include the raised anvil of a new primer. With the anvil removed the Rem primer case alone was .1085" and the GM205MAR case was .1065".

As far as having inserted the primer backwards, my first reaction to the click-no-bang was to eject the cartridge and look at the primer. It was in the right way and well struck. I am attaching pictures of the top and bottom of the primer which clearly show the firing pin indentation. There is a black marker dot on the suspect primer. Keep in mind that the process of pushing out the spent primer also pushes out the indentation a bit, but not as much as the case pressure of actually firing the round. To the left of the primer prompting this thread is a new Rem primer from the same lot, to the right are two spent Rem primers, also from the same lot.

I have seen the occasional stainless steel pin stuck in a case that made it all the way into the dryer. It worries me that one would ever make it into a loaded round and get hurled down the stainless steel barrel. But in this case, the first thing that I did with the dud round was to pull the bullet with a collet, then dump the contents of the case onto a piece of white paper. I am 90% sure that I would have spotted a stainless pin amongst the grains of powder. Maybe a tiny shaving of brass from trim and chamfer could have become wedged into the flash hole and gone unnoticed.

With regard to powder and primer storage, both have been in my possession less than 2 months. My supplies are in a temperature controlled basement, at the moment 67F and 44% RH. The primers came from the Vancouver Sportman's Warehouse. They had them for weeks and I bought a few thousand at what I thought was the pretty good price of 59.90 per thou. The cardboard from the sleeve is stamped 1508. I have loaded lots of rounds with these as well as the GM205MAR and could not say that I noticed any difference.