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this has been a good discussion that continues to bolster the case for full length sizing over neck only. But Ive made an observation that I think might explain the confusion between the two methods, correct me if Im wrong, but is the backing off the full length die to precisely control the shoulder bump a modified use of the die or is it part of the design intent of full length dies?

My Redding full length dies instruct I should be able to feel the shell holder make contact with the die, this would result in forming the shoulder to minimum chamber dimensions which my guess is less desirable than neck sizing only for accuracy?

I think that might explain why many people who traditionally neck size for greater accuracy are not embracing the idea of full length sizing for greater accuracy?
 
A lot if not most die manufacturers will instruct you to make contact with the shell holder. This is most likely to make sure the case will fit in any chamber out there. Usually this results in overworking the case.
 
A lot if not most die manufacturers will instruct you to make contact with the shell holder. This is most likely to make sure the case will fit in any chamber out there. Usually this results in overworking the case.
That makes sense and with good reason.... but then I think that explains why many reloaders who trust neck sizing arent full sizing. Backing off the full size die seems to be a trick of the trade benchrest shooters homed in on rather than the design intent of the die which would be documented in its instructions from the manufacturer.
 
F class shooters would laugh at neck sizing only for accuracy. Trust me they all bump the shoulder back a few thousands for several reasons and have been doing it for years with little or no loss in accuracy. For a hunting rifle you definitely should not neck size only. Concentrate on several main things to get the most out of your ammo. Either buy uniform brass like Lapua or make the brass you have as uniform as possible. Weigh charges accurately. Pick a good bullet (you have already done this as partitions are great). Find a powder the rifle likes (I already gave you a couple to try in the 25-06) by using a chrono to find a node where speed doesn't change much over .3-.5 of a grain. Start at 1-2 gr under book max and load each successive round .1gr heavier than the last up to max book. Of course stop at any sign of excess pressure. If the powder is correct you will have a low extreme spread, hopefully less than 20 fps and stable combustion has been achieved. You really don' t even have to pay attention to accuracy at this point as you are looking only for stable combustion evidenced buy the low ES. Next find a seating depth that is harmony with your barrel. Start with that Nosler partition .020" from contacting lands and load 3 rounds at that oal and groups of 3, each group being .003" longer that the previous out to .050" ot so off the lands. Again look for a node that provides consistent accuracy over the biggest change in seating depth. Right in the middle of that fat node is where you will find your seating depth. That really all that is needed to provide top notch accuracy potential from any rifle. This should only require 75-100 shots or so to develop a load the rifle likes starting with a couple powders.
Here is and example of finding a powder the rifle likes. Thee last 7 of 10 shots went into less than one inch despite each successive shot being .1 grain heavier charge weight. The last three shots showed a ES of 3fps. I will explore a couple tenths of a grain higher to see how wide this node is to try and load smack dab in the middle of it. I will then tune the harmonics with seating depth of bullet to get the most accurate ammo possible for this gun.

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@osprey I have to do with the components I have its taken me weeks just to find primers and powder (new) from private sales. The only brass I have is once fired Hornandy and Im not certain about the visible ring down by the case head which is odd to me being fired only once.

I always thought we wanted bullet depth to be as close to the lands as possible, a bit more for hunting rounds for more reliable chambering. If Im reading you right seating depth affects precision and its best to start closest to the lands and seat deeper to find what holds the best group called a node?
 
Start at 1-2 gr under book max and load each successive round .1gr heavier than the last up to max book.
Hmm. Ive never heard of this method before of only loading one round per charge load And shooting them all on one target.
I kinda like that. I may have to give that a try.
I usually load 3-5 of each for inconsistencies as im usually not able to afford lapua brass or anything. But it should work fairly well for just about anything. And save quite a bit of time and money in components.

You have 3 and 5 shot test groups drilled in your head so much it never even occured to me.

Thanks for the idea.
 
So whats "max book" when I get different numbers from different sources?

Nosler (the bullet I'm loading) tells me MAX is 50g with the powder I'm loading, but IMRs website tells me MAX is 53g with the weight of the bullet I'm loading.
 
If Im reading you right seating depth affects precision (correct) and its best to start closest to the lands (incorrect) and seat deeper to find what holds the best group called a node? (Instead think: seating depth (not deeper) holds the best group called a node)

Its the Opposite for seating depth. Case volume significantly affects pressure. If everything stays the same less case volume (meaning a bullet seated deeper into the case) will INCREASE pressure.
Just Seating a bullet back 1/16" or .0625" can increase pressure as much as 10k psi.
In other words spiking!

He is saying START by
1) finding your jamb length. (The length at which your bullet is physically touching the lands, with zero jump)
2) loading right off the bat with your bullets seated .020" FAR away from the lands. In other words deeper than you should need it, this will give you room to lengthen the COAL
(seating the bullet incrementally closer to the lands bit by bit every +.003")
3) so seating depth will be:
Jamb - .020"
Jamb - .017"
Jamb - .014"
Jamb - .011"
Jamb - .008"
And so on every +.003" the bullet is seating further out. Increasing the COAL.

This way you will NEVER raise case pressure. It will only lower pressure, when you increase case volume.

This is why they make case capacity and water volume comparisons and make such a big deal about never loading to max.
You will get variations a little bit in powder and primers (and should load down slightly if using a new lot and re verify your load)
But case capacity changes are guaranteed to make a fairly big difference especially if less case capacity.
Also why you want to avoid using severely dented cases.

If you really want to get crazy about accuracy after that You can also sort your brass by weight and put them into 3-4 diff weight categories for the most consistency. This should also translate pretty accurately into case volume.
And you can do the same with your bullets and then shoot them in these groups. This is more of an f class type thing but it all depends on how much time and fun you are having. It WILL help get into those low extreme spread (ES) numbers.
 
Koda, some bullets like to be out near lands and some like more jump. Starting .020" off lands is usually a good safe spot to start or max magazine length if it is less. I would use Nosler data for max with their bullet. Until you get more experience
don't exceed. The method I describe is basically the Satterlee method, I did not make it up. I have been using it successfully for a couple years now as it really saves time and components. Look it up for a better explanation than what I gave. Also look at youtube stuff on load development with Erik Cortina as he uses a variation and boils it down to it's essence.
 
So whats "max book" when I get different numbers from different sources?

Nosler (the bullet I'm loading) tells me MAX is 50g with the powder I'm loading, but IMRs website tells me MAX is 53g with the weight of the bullet I'm loading.
This will be a bit of a judgement call. In general they never use the exact components combo you are using which will effect the max pressure.
Some manufactures are more comfortable giving hotter loads. Some arent. You can also load over max. Or you find YOUR max will be lower than either. In that case you will have to stop ladder testing and disassemble those rounds above the load you starting seeing pressure signs and "download" those to a safer pressure. (Pull apart and reduce charge weight)
For this a kenetic (hammer style) bullet puller will work but is a little messy but its cheap and work universally on all cases. I prefer a collet style puller. Rcbs and hornady both make one. I have the hornady but i dont like the throw lever. Its stamped steep which cams down on a column and its fairly cheaply made. These both require collets specific to your bullet dia. And can get fairly expensive.

I think i prefer to go a little past max by maybe .5gn and pull mine and download them later so i make sure i actually hit max my first time out and dont have to go back and continue making ladder loads to go out and test a second time
 
Thank you both, i'll read up more on this later tonight but its making sense Im hoping I can put it all together as I begin running the first rounds thru the press. Love the information given here.
 
Pretty sure earlier you said it was 25-06 correct? Heres the hornady 10th ed.
Note it uses a hornady case same as yours. The bullets im sure are hornady though not Nosler. But sometimes its nice to have another input.
Just find the closest match in bullet weight. If its a 1-2 gn off thats fine just adjust slightly. (A Heavier bullet will take less powder. Or the opposite way to express that same equation would be a heavier bullet with the same charge will increase pressure)

Note charges in red are max.

Hopefully you see your powder here in a close matched combo.
I had the Nosler manual and it was not nearly as helpful as this hornady one. It got donated to a friend.

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Hopefully you see your powder here in a close matched combo.
I had the Nosler manual and it was not nearly as helpful as this hornady one. It got donated to a friend.
yes, withing a few grains of the same.
I figured it was a judgement call to use load data from one source. The only book I have is Lee's Modern Reloading but Ive found I can get free load data from the powders and bullets mfg websites. Thought about buying another book but not certain I need to though Hornady isnt giving out their load data for free (thank you for those pics...) I will probably always use Nosler Partition, Swift A frame is a close second.
 
If you can get three sources and their Max's are all fairly similar its alot more likely than just two matching. But in my limited experience you probably wont really ever find two let alone three that agree on max to be 100% confident.
Theres TONS of sources.
(I wonder if the library has these books?):p

What i want to know is how the wylde catters figure this all out from the ground up.
 
Theres TONS of sources.
The powder mfg and sometimes the bullet mfg has load data online free, I figure with my Lee book I should be able to judge between at least 2 sources but Ive been wanting to find a good reloading blog that publishes load data but havent found any though Im guessing there might be some liability reasons behind that not to mention trusting a 3rd party source.

My web reading and searches keeps finding me returning to ultimatereloader and accurateshooter websites.
 
Im guessing there might be some liability reasons behind that not to mention trusting a 3rd party source.

My web reading and searches keeps finding me returning to ultimatereloader and accurateshooter websites.
Yup this.. Most people wont even give out load data online. Its like giving legal or medical advise.
The manufactures have good reliable info. Some are just more cautious than others on their top end. Just keep an eye on pressure signs and for crazy velocity and youll be fine.
 
Its kinda more fun anyways when theres a small bit of mad scientist level of uncertainty to it...

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The powder mfg and sometimes the bullet mfg has load data online free, I figure with my Lee book I should be able to judge between at least 2 sources but Ive been wanting to find a good reloading blog that publishes load data but havent found any though Im guessing there might be some liability reasons behind that not to mention trusting a 3rd party source.

My web reading and searches keeps finding me returning to ultimatereloader and accurateshooter websites.

The best way to find good load combinations is forums. However, always compare with manufacture data. For common cartridges people have tried everything. Using the common accurate bullet and powder combinations others have found work well gets you 90% to the most accurate load for your rifle. For example, 308 win with 168 gr HPBT and 41.5 gr IMR4895 or 223 with 77gr HPBT and 23.5 RE15 are common accuracy loads for service rifles. Trying those combinations should produce accurate groups and you can play with the charge weights to dial them in.

Don't waste time or your barrel chasing the newest do everything powders marketed. Let someone else try them instead unless developing loads is more of a hobby than shooting.
 
8208 is pretty brand new powder and LOTs of people are finding it to be a VERY good performer. VERY temp stable too.
I hear what your saying and there is merit to it. But especially these days you work with what your have. Many of the optimal powders are the hardest to find.

Hopefully this debacle will become the age of enlightenment with regards to reloading and experimenting.
 
I'm pretty confident what little powder Ive scored will be ideal for this cartridge as its listed near the top of all the load data I've found so far 2lbs of IMR4831, I also scored a pound of R23 as part of the deal. It better work anyways cause it took me several weeks to find scouring the classifieds.

And speaking of load data a quick moment of serendipity connecting the past with the present as I found this old Sierra reloading book sorting thru a box of my late fathers stuff who passed away a year ago this week, yes its been a sobering week but the note I left my dad on the book years ago brought my whole day to a stop. (The horns he took with the very rifle Im reloading for).

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