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thorborg

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Having no experience (yet) with this I can only go by the majority of what I'm reading which has supported full length sizing over neck only both in benchrest shooters and for hunting applications...

I can only ask questions based on my understanding at this time, but my understanding is that neck sizing is an improvement over full length sizing when headspace isn't controlled, but doesn't control case runout which is an improvement over fireformed brass when headspace is controlled in the full length resizing.

Im open to all opinions but the good news is whatever I decide should yield an improvement over factory ammo so there might be an argument for simplicity, though my nature enjoys the technical details of things so I tend to favor whatever method will extract the most precision I can get for even just a hunting rifle.

I personally wouldn't sweat any supportive or opposing opines on stuff like this. There are such a myriad of things that will affect what happens between the muzzle and target, with many out comes of one, hard to reproduce by the guy on the bench next to him. Give me a one hole rifle with a one hole perfect load with powerful optics, and I still wont be able to bench shoot it better than 1moa. That's me, now my wife might be able to make the hole smaller than the bullet diameter. Even the length of the bullet and where it sits within the case has their own set of anomalies. The best a new hand loader can do is start with the basics, if you are serious about being the best you can then keep detailed records of everything, modify one thing at a time to gauge its impact, reject what seems to be "make work" read, talk try. Eventually you will form your own opinions and know for yourself what work for you. And yes, likely contrary to some.

Just for fun;
May 16th1901, In Boulder Colorado, Mr. Rowland fired a 200 yard, ten shot, one holer, with a black powder breach loader measuring .725".
Each and every lead alloy bullet being inserted from the muzzle end.
To prove it was no accident he did it again with a Schoyen built rifle in 1931.

Back them this was considered impossible, to my knowledge not repeated by others.
I personally cant do that with any of my modern rifles, spiffy projectiles and fancy scopes. (at least any more)

# ( using a Schuetzen style .32-40 breach loader, Hazard's FG black powder, Pope machine rest)
This info (paraphrased) comes from a book "the Accurate Rifle" by Warren Page.
 

Dr Prepper

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Since this is for hunting I decided to full length size to avoid any tight chambering or stuck bolts. My understanding right now anyways is if done correctly full length sizing is as or more accurate than neck only sizing if you reload accurately to the chambers headspace, concentricity, and seat the bullet depth precisely to minimize jump but for hunting while still allowing for ease of chambering. Somebody correct me if Im wrong.
Full length sizing is alot more straight forward. Id start with that.
Most folks agree that when they neck size only like with a bushing die (which usually bumps the shoulder too) even in a bolt gun they usually only get about 5 loadings before the case has swelled to much to chamber or extract reliably and then full length size and start the cycle over again. I believe the main goal in this is extending brass life. Not necessarily accuracy. But many do report accuracy as well.
For a bolt gun think of YOUR chamber as the sizing die. This is the concept of neck sizing.

In would def. Get a good set of dail calipers and NOT digital. Although digital ARE fantastic for comparitors because you can zero them out on the comparitor bushing and easily measure the base to datum. But they generally arent as accurate. (Just 'cause it gives you .0005 readings doesn't mean its accurate to the half tenths)

Brownells also sells the hex nut style comparitors and they are a good price. But i wouldn't recommend them. They are cut with a taper cone shape. And have a fairly heavy chamfer in them.
They could be amazing but brownells totally missed the mark with those.

Sheridan engineering makes the best chamber type gauges. They sell one that has a slotted window cut into it so you can physically see everything in relation to the shoulder/case mouth they even check the loaded bullets to OAL. they are well worth the extra $.

If you REALLY want to get into the weeds.
When you start reloading your first rifle rounds. Find out your bullet seating "JAM" length (thats the depth your bullet is ACTUALLY is touching your lands) and then subtract about .006-.008" so your bullet "jumps"
And find your best accurate load.
This will tell you your powder/charge "node" fir that particular bullet/case/primer combo.

After that you will play with your seating depth. You start with the bullet seated fairly deep because seating your bullet out farther (closer to the lands) wont increase pressure at all. Pressure only drop in the chamber by seating further out ok.. So make up 5 rounds with bullets seated out further every .002-.003" up to max COAL. and shoot these groups off, find the most accurate group if those.
That will give you your "seating node"

With those two factors known this should give you your most accurate load possible using those components.

Even if your NOT shooting F class, you can still learn a thing or two from them and some of it can be applied with results.
On youtube F class John
And Erik Cortina (lapau's f class sponsor)
Johnnys reloading bench is a bit of fud and talks a bit to much (a trait im sure we share) but i still like to watch him.
Are worth a chance to glean some info

Good luck out there.
 

Dr Prepper

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And yet another thing to consider.. Is "they" tell you to full length size all your new unfired brass before loading anyway to uniform it up.

To the point of your question i think at the heart of lays tolerance stacking.

Everyone is shooting for the happy median barrel /bolt ammo makers. But they are allowed a tolerance. Realizing that ONLY YOU can make round optimal for your chamber. no chamber is exactly the same as the next.
 
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Having no experience (yet) with this I can only go by the majority of what I'm reading which has supported full length sizing over neck only both in benchrest shooters and for hunting applications...

I can only ask questions based on my understanding at this time, but my understanding is that neck sizing is an improvement over full length sizing when headspace isn't controlled, but doesn't control case runout which is an improvement over fireformed brass when headspace is controlled in the full length resizing.

Im open to all opinions but the good news is whatever I decide should yield an improvement over factory ammo so there might be an argument for simplicity, though my nature enjoys the technical details of things so I tend to favor whatever method will extract the most precision I can get for even just a hunting rifle.


Your assessment is close. Forget neck sizing ever existed. It is proven it is not better than simply sizing your brass properly.

There is no gadgets really necessary to properly size brass. You only need the proper comparator insert size for the case you are loading. The insert holder is a gadget that is not necessary and sometimes not as convenient.

You are already steps ahead in understanding reloading. Headspace and proper case size is a concept long time experience reloaders seem to be reluctant to consider. It take minimal additional effort and one tool to make precision sized cases. Yet the same arguments come up about how much additional cost or time it takes and it makes unreliable ammunition. Just the opposite is true. Without knowing the headspace and sizing brass precisely, reliability and case life can be reduced and full accuracy potential is not likely to be gained.
 

Spitpatch

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It is very important when supplying information to others (especially eager and intelligent persons learning) that we not compare apples to oranges when we advocate one technique over the other.

It is my contention that the "Full Length Resizing" as presented in the video is NOT the "Full Length Resizing" as commonly understood (especially by those with new exposure to reloading).

This is borne out in the course of the video when at least two responders in the (hot dog, free beer or waiting to be scored) line, when they are quick to qualify, "two thousandths!".

What they are advocating is NOT "Full Length Resizing" as defined by full cam-over travel of the ram and total exposure of case to die resulting in maximum possible reforming of the fired case (Such as Joe Six Pack might do with his garden-variety dies in order that his ammunition cycles in both his and his partner's .30-06's, essentially a return to factory dimensions of the case.)

Yes, to split hairs, the champions (by shoulder bumping to two thousandths) are "full length resizing" the case in the sense that the die has made wall contact even to the rear portion of the case, therefore changing it (ever so slightly there) from fired dimensions.

They are NOT pushing that case as far as possible into the die. Pushing the case as far as possible into the die is the regularly understood definition of "Full Length Resizing" (ESPECIALLY for those with somewhat less reloading experience).

Even careful "neck sizing" (to the bottom of the neck) in an FL die will make some (minor) changes in other portions of the case. In that sense it is also (to split hairs) "Full Length Resizing", since the die did make contact. The purpose of neck sizing dies is to avoid that altogether. For certain disciplines their value has been documented and verified.

F-Class competition is a relatively "practical" discipline that demands a high level of functional reliability in the ammunition toward the gun. "Full Length Resizing" (as THEY refer to it) may well be an advantage in the sport.
 

Dr Prepper

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They are NOT pushing that case as far as possible into the die. Pushing the case as far as possible into the die is the regularly understood definition of "Full Length Resizing" (ESPECIALLY for those with somewhat less reloading experience).
Excellent, well written post there sir.
Couldnt have said it better myself. Literally, or i would have..
So thanks for clarification! ;)

Also note a few did specify they use a either a bushing die (neck die) and a body die, or a combo full length bushing die. I suspect more may be using the FL bushing die than are letting on as to tightly control a precise custom neck tension of their bullets.
 
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It is very important when supplying information to others (especially eager and intelligent persons learning) that we not compare apples to oranges when we advocate one technique over the other.

It is my contention that the "Full Length Resizing" as presented in the video is NOT the "Full Length Resizing" as commonly understood (especially by those with new exposure to reloading).

This is borne out in the course of the video when at least two responders in the (hot dog, free beer or waiting to be scored) line, when they are quick to qualify, "two thousandths!".

What they are advocating is NOT "Full Length Resizing" as defined by full cam-over travel of the ram and total exposure of case to die resulting in maximum possible reforming of the fired case (Such as Joe Six Pack might do with his garden-variety dies in order that his ammunition cycles in both his and his partner's .30-06's, essentially a return to factory dimensions of the case.)

Yes, to split hairs, the champions (by shoulder bumping to two thousandths) are "full length resizing" the case in the sense that the die has made wall contact even to the rear portion of the case, therefore changing it (ever so slightly there) from fired dimensions.

They are NOT pushing that case as far as possible into the die. Pushing the case as far as possible into the die is the regularly understood definition of "Full Length Resizing" (ESPECIALLY for those with somewhat less reloading experience).

Even careful "neck sizing" (to the bottom of the neck) in an FL die will make some (minor) changes in other portions of the case. In that sense it is also (to split hairs) "Full Length Resizing", since the die did make contact. The purpose of neck sizing dies is to avoid that altogether. For certain disciplines their value has been documented and verified.

F-Class competition is a relatively "practical" discipline that demands a high level of functional reliability in the ammunition toward the gun. "Full Length Resizing" (as THEY refer to it) may well be an advantage in the sport.
So to help me understand this better, a neck size die only touches the neck not the shoulder? And a full lenght die when backed out just enough to bump the shoulder that critical .001-.002" isnt fully supporting the entire case as its design intent?
 

DizzyJ

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Mikej

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It is very important when supplying information to others (especially eager and intelligent persons learning) that we not compare apples to oranges when we advocate one technique over the other.

It is my contention that the "Full Length Resizing" as presented in the video is NOT the "Full Length Resizing" as commonly understood (especially by those with new exposure to reloading).

This is borne out in the course of the video when at least two responders in the (hot dog, free beer or waiting to be scored) line, when they are quick to qualify, "two thousandths!".

What they are advocating is NOT "Full Length Resizing" as defined by full cam-over travel of the ram and total exposure of case to die resulting in maximum possible reforming of the fired case (Such as Joe Six Pack might do with his garden-variety dies in order that his ammunition cycles in both his and his partner's .30-06's, essentially a return to factory dimensions of the case.)

Yes, to split hairs, the champions (by shoulder bumping to two thousandths) are "full length resizing" the case in the sense that the die has made wall contact even to the rear portion of the case, therefore changing it (ever so slightly there) from fired dimensions.

They are NOT pushing that case as far as possible into the die. Pushing the case as far as possible into the die is the regularly understood definition of "Full Length Resizing" (ESPECIALLY for those with somewhat less reloading experience).

Even careful "neck sizing" (to the bottom of the neck) in an FL die will make some (minor) changes in other portions of the case. In that sense it is also (to split hairs) "Full Length Resizing", since the die did make contact. The purpose of neck sizing dies is to avoid that altogether. For certain disciplines their value has been documented and verified.

F-Class competition is a relatively "practical" discipline that demands a high level of functional reliability in the ammunition toward the gun. "Full Length Resizing" (as THEY refer to it) may well be an advantage in the sport.

Seeing as I'm still new to loading shouldered rounds. Answer me this. Hopefully the answer will be useful to KODA too...
Loading for a Swede Mauser I full length resized, with cam over bumping the should back to where a new round was measure using a comparator I got the idea from someone here to chamber a fired, (in the Swede) un-sized round. I inserted the empty under the extractor and chambered the empty feeling just the slightest resistance at the last moment of closing the bolt. My question would be, if I back the die off so the shoulder is not bumped back the neck should still be sufficiently sized shouldn't it? Eliminating the need for a neck only sizer.
 

DizzyJ

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So to help me understand this better, a neck size die only touches the neck not the shoulder? And a full lenght die when backed out just enough to bump the shoulder that critical .001-.002" isnt fully supporting the entire case as its design intent?
Neck sizing only sizes the neck. Nothing else. Thus it’s called “neck sizing”.

Full length sizing sizes along the entire case length. Depending on the die set up and how it’s made, it may or may not completely size the brass all the way to the bottom of the base. Generally, the very bottom of the base is a lot thicker and doesn’t swell or stretch outward like the upper portion of the case. So when you use a full length die to resize, there may be a very small portion the the full length die doesn’t touch when sizing only far enough to bump the shoulder back to the desired dimension.
 
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DizzyJ

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Seeing as I'm still new to loading shouldered rounds. Answer me this. Hopefully the answer will be useful to KODA too...
Loading for a Swede Mauser I full length resized, with cam over bumping the should back to where a new round was measure using a comparator I got the idea from someone here to chamber a fired, (in the Swede) un-sized round. I inserted the empty under the extractor and chambered the empty feeling just the slightest resistance at the last moment of closing the bolt. My question would be, if I back the die off so the shoulder is not bumped back the neck should still be sufficiently sized shouldn't it? Eliminating the need for a neck only sizer.
The neck should still be sufficiently sized..
 

AMT

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I will try and make this as short and easy to read/follow as possible.

When I loaded for my 357AMP the ONLY way to make the cartridge is to neck-down a 44AMP cartridge. (*lets not get into "yeah but you could use the 308 or 30-06 case, cut it down, trim to proper length, ream the case to accept a 44 bullet, blah, blah, blah"). Let's keep it simple.....

A good lube to size brass is Imperial Sizing wax. Actually, it is a GREAT lube for sizing brass!

Set your sizing die long. Run your brass up and form the neck. Take the shell and put it in your firearm and close the bolt/slide. By "long" I mean up (unscrew it a few turns higher). It doesn't have to be at the very top, just far enough up that once you've necked your shell, the shell can be inserted in your chamber and the bolt/slide CANNOT close, because the shoulder is still set too high.

Turn the die down 1/4 to 1/2 turn (whatever you are comfortable with). Run the shell again to seat the shoulder a little lower. Every time you run the shoulder down a little always check it in your chamber. Continue to do this process until your case fits in your chamber and the bolt just closes. THEN, run your die down about 1/16th to 1/8th of a turn. Run the case again. It should be perfect for YOUR chamber.

If I remember correctly the "rule" is 0.003 - 0.005 between the base of the shell and the bolt/slide face. But don't quote me on that. I am sure someone will correct me on that. :)

Once it fits perfect in your chamber lock the die in place being VERY careful not to change the setting. Run another shell just to be safe.

If you have too much distance between the back of the shell and the bolt/slide face, your are set too deep in your chamber - AND THAT IS BAD.

:s0155:
 

Mikej

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Should the ejector be removed from the bolt?
Should the case be hung on the bolt face by the extractor And then slid into the receiver?

Like I stated, I slide the empty round up under the extractor claw.
 
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Dr Prepper

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Ill try and answer as directly as possible, and then go into more detail below that if your curios, it may help.
(There is a ton of die options out there can be confusing)

So to help me understand this better, a neck size die only touches the neck not the shoulder?

no.
A true neck size die will size the neck and bump the shoulder back. A bottle neck case will grow in length more than dia. So neck bumping is basically always required.
Reference attached pic of cutaway dies. You can hardly notice a difference between the FL (full length) die and the NK (neck) die.

And a full lenght die when backed out just enough to bump the shoulder that critical .001-.002" isnt fully supporting the entire case as its design intent?

Incorrect, it is.
A full length bushing die will always support the body of the case almost fully. Your talking a fraction of a percent less support from raising the die a few thou.

(Bit of a tangent but may help)
They also make whats called a small base die that are specifically made to size further down the body (even into the web/head area) than a regular full length die body would. These are basically made specifically for AR's/ semi auto/ machine gun fired brass whose chambers are ALOT greater maximum tolerance for reliability/cycling. Since this brass is most likely to fat around the base to fit any other chamber it needs a small base sizing die to get the bottom head area back to normal. This works the brass more and reduces brass life so generally they are avoided unless needed. Such as when you do a regular FL size and either drop it in a chamber type gauge or your chamber and it doesn't close the bolt.
There are many variations of full length sizer dies (SB) being one of them, they will ALL bump the neck and size the body to a certain degree.

This is also why i recommended the sheridan windowed guage, so you can physically see where your case isnt fitting the gauge..
(Might be the mouth, shoulder, body or base)
Calipers and the comparitors are very handy for measuring how much you bump the neck but its harder to measure the body of a case in a precise repeatable way unless you have like a optical comparitor or something. A case gauge has its place on the bench as well imo.

A phone call to the actual die maker might really help you understand the minutiae between their various dies they offer.
Redding customer support is top notch.

For instance im pretty certain Redding makes full length bushing die which is basically a full length die body that accepts bushings that you can order in every variation of .001" diameter. keep in mind those are outer neck diameters not inside which can vary with brass neck thickness and especially if your neck turning (which im sure you arent) which is basically think custom lathing the neck dia (cutting) to a custom diameter for uniformity)
They also offer this same die in a standard threaded stem format. And also one with a micrometer adjustment that separately controls how far down the bushing sizes. (So theres several adjustments, the die body up and down and then the bushing adjustments up and down as well.

Now again im fairly certain at least redding (last time i spoke to them) also make just a neck sizing die which has the same floating (self centering) bushings and bumps the shoulder but does not really size the case body.
This would be considered true neck sizing. Where the body isnt really touched. The case is left "fire formed" by the chamber of the rifle and springs back a bit when chamber pressure drops for extraction. Due to the elasticity of the brass.

shot23redding.jpg
 
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Dr Prepper

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Seeing as I'm still new to loading shouldered rounds. Answer me this. Hopefully the answer will be useful to KODA too...
Loading for a Swede Mauser I full length resized, with cam over bumping the should back to where a new round was measure using a comparator I got the idea from someone here to chamber a fired, (in the Swede) un-sized round. I inserted the empty under the extractor and chambered the empty feeling just the slightest resistance at the last moment of closing the bolt. My question would be, if I back the die off so the shoulder is not bumped back the neck should still be sufficiently sized shouldn't it? Eliminating the need for a neck only sizer.
From what i understand this is correct. The neck will still be sized 95-98% of the way down and the body should still be sized somewhat. If not sized then hugged and squeezed a little and springed back to fire formed original shape as shot. All depends on how much. And thats all relative.
 

Dr Prepper

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Should the ejector be removed from the bolt?
Should the case be hung on the bolt face by the extractor And then slid into the receiver?
Are you talking about an AR? or bolt action? Some guns dont have "ejectors" such as an ak.. Or ruger mkII
the case is held in place by the extractor until it hits a part of the frame kicking it out.

Assuming its an ar your talking about. I dont.
I always figure it would be the exact same scenario as a loaded round would be im a fully functioning gun when fired. I use a FL sized case to find the bullet jam distance in my guns and i do this with a slotted case cut with a dremel down the neck so if pinches the bullet enough to extract it without moving.
 
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