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Dr Prepper

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I'm pretty confident what little powder Ive scored will be ideal for this cartridge as its listed near the top of all the load data I've found so far 2lbs of IMR4831, I also scored a pound of R23 as part of the deal. It better work anyways cause it took me several weeks to find scouring the classifieds.

And speaking of load data a quick moment of serendipity connecting the past with the present as I found this old Sierra reloading book sorting thru a box of my late fathers stuff who passed away a year ago this week, yes its been a sobering week but the note I left my dad on the book years ago brought my whole day to a stop. (The horns he took with the very rifle Im reloading for).

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dude that awesome! you should frame it in some UV resistant glass or something. its probably so outdated alot of the powders arent around anymore. but who knows, maybe some. im sure its a collectors item at least. NOT saying you should sell it.
glad you found it.
i wish i was close to my dad and had memories like that.:s0158:
 
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dude that awesome! you should frame it in some UV resistant glass or something. its probably so outdated alot of the powders arent around anymore. but who knows, maybe some. im sure its a collectors item at least. NOT saying you should sell it.
glad you found it.
i wish i was close to my dad and had memories like that.:s0158:
Its so old I dont really plan on using it though IMR 4831 is in there for my caliber. Its missing its cover but it says its the second edition and has a copyright of 1978 inside it which is odd because Im guessing it was about 25+ years ago when my dad got into reloading for a short while. I will keep it but not frame it but will figure out how to mount those horns on some wood and put on the wall next to mine.
 

Spitpatch

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So whats "max book" when I get different numbers from different sources?

Nosler (the bullet I'm loading) tells me MAX is 50g with the powder I'm loading, but IMRs website tells me MAX is 53g with the weight of the bullet I'm loading.

Generallly, you will find Nosler to be a "milder' book than, say, Speer (which is generally a "hotter" book).

BUT: Nosler's max loads are generally milder for a VERY GOOD REASON.

Their bullets are for the most part designed much differently and usually create higher pressures given the same powder charge. (velocities from the Nosler max loads do not suffer much because pressure does correspond directly to velocity.)

Perhaps the best example of this is the Partition bullet. That substantial solid web of copper through the midsection does not forgive and compress in the bore as does lead core.

Another example (but for different reasons) is the Ballistic Tip (and cohort Accubond; a Ballistic Tip with a thicker wall and bonded core). These bullets, due to their substantial hollow cavity forward and their significant wafer of solid copper that makes up the boattail base result in a bullet that is VERY long for weight compared to conventional bullets. More bearing surface on the bore creates higher pressure than is produced behind a conventional bullet given the same powder charge.

Always pay attention to what Nosler says about max for their specialty bullets. NEVER toss a Partition or a Ballistic Tip on top of your screaming pet load that works just fine behind a conventional bullet.

I value the Nosler book for its conservatism. I value my Speer book as a view toward what MIGHT be possible. I value my old manuals (especially Speer and Ackley) as a view toward the outer limits. My Ken Waters Pet Loads is the presiding judge and serves as a narrative of "what to watch for and what to try". Because he did.

You can't have enough manuals and for me, they ALL come out when working with a new gun: scattered across the bench and floor with open pages to the caliber in question.
 

DizzyJ

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Generallly, you will find Nosler to be a "milder' book than, say, Speer (which is generally a "hotter" book).

BUT: Nosler's max loads are generally milder for a VERY GOOD REASON.

Their bullets are for the most part designed much differently and usually create higher pressures given the same powder charge. (velocities from the Nosler max loads do not suffer much because pressure does correspond directly to velocity.)

Perhaps the best example of this is the Partition bullet. That substantial solid web of copper through the midsection does not forgive and compress in the bore as does lead core.

Another example (but for different reasons) is the Ballistic Tip (and cohort Accubond; a Ballistic Tip with a thicker wall and bonded core). These bullets, due to their substantial hollow cavity forward and their significant wafer of solid copper that makes up the boattail base result in a bullet that is VERY long for weight compared to conventional bullets. More bearing surface on the bore creates higher pressure than is produced behind a conventional bullet given the same powder charge.

Always pay attention to what Nosler says about max for their specialty bullets. NEVER toss a Partition or a Ballistic Tip on top of your screaming pet load that works just fine behind a conventional bullet.

I value the Nosler book for its conservatism. I value my Speer book as a view toward what MIGHT be possible. I value my old manuals (especially Speer and Ackley) as a view toward the outer limits. My Ken Waters Pet Loads is the presiding judge and serves as a narrative of "what to watch for and what to try". Because he did.

You can't have enough manuals and for me, they ALL come out when working with a new gun: scattered across the bench and floor with open pages to the caliber in question.
Have to agree with the manuals. I’m always getting new information, or refreshing old info that has gathered cobwebs in the back of my mind.
 
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@Spitpatch the quick explanation of the bullets constructions effect makes sense. Also Im loading for a Nosler Partition...
My thought process right now is to not exceed the max load of any book data not just as a matter of safety but Ive never been into the "+P" idea of needing "more power" I value accuracy over power anyday. That said I would like to see if I can hit 3000fps with the 120g partition but thats on the high end of the load data Ive seen so far. I have no choice but to work with the powder I can find but in normal times Id just go buy the powder Nosler recommends best Retumbo, starts at 3038fps.
 
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I could see myself getting another manual but Ive found load data for free on the powder mfg website and most bullet mfgs as well.

 

DizzyJ

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I could see myself getting another manual but Ive found load data for free on the powder mfg website and most bullet mfgs as well.

I don’t necessarily buy the manuals for the loads anymore (still valid and great info), but just as much for the information they provide in the chapters leading up to and sometimes following the load data.

Certainly not required and probably not a necessity right off the bat, but over the years I’ve learned to appreciate the added info in regards to the actual reloading process and history laid out in the reloading manuals.

Of course I’ve also purchased more specific reloading info in regards to precision hand loading, loading for the AR, long range precision, etc etc.

The entire process fascinates me. It doesn’t help that I’m extremely anal about technique and testing different theories. Or maybe it does. ;)
 

Spitpatch

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I could see myself getting another manual but Ive found load data for free on the powder mfg website and most bullet mfgs as well.


I so enjoyed the photo of the note to Dad, the goat horns and the .25-06 case resting comfortably. A sentimental "still life".

I gave my father's .25-06 (Ruger No. 1) to his best friend when Dad passed. Last summer the friend (now one of my best) phoned me and said on my next visit I would be taking it home. The very first rifle I bought when I came home from the service (having all my guns stolen) was a Browning 78 in .25-06. The single shots now make a "helluva pair to draw to" as Dad would have said.

You may find the partition bullets to be a bit more finicky toward accuracy than other bullets. This is because that is not the primary purpose of their design.
You may also find the Accubonds to be a bit less accurate than the Ballistic Tips. (Another result of purposeful design.)

My bullet of choice for the .25-06's (three of them here now: somehow a Model 70 snuck in the door to snuggle with littermates) is the 100gr Ballistic Tip. Certainly if I was to chase elk with the caliber, I might be looking at the Partition or Accubond. The 100gr has resulted in lightning kills on goats and big muleys, and with the 26"' barrels on the single shots, that bullet will run right behind .257 Weatherby factory velocities. IMR4831 and Match primers round out the recipe.

Safely.
 

fourpower

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Total beginner here reading and getting setup to learn to reload, help me understand the effect of case sizing and its relationship to headspace.

The basic steps of reloading doesn't mention sizing the case to match headspace, can the sizing die be adjusted to fine tune the case datum length? Does the sizing die always push the shoulder back enough for all chambers? How will I know its too much?
Yes they do but if trying for best accuracy out of your gun you should try for less headspace for your rifle. I have a super accurate 6.5x47 that i set at zero headspace and i have reloaded my laupa brass 35 times and brass is still going great. I also load a lot of belted mag brass and headspace on the shoulder not the belt and always get at least 10 reloads on the brass! On cheap bolt actions and any semiauto you need to set headspace back at least .005 and most cheap rifles set back .002.
 
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I so enjoyed the photo of the note to Dad, the goat horns and the .25-06 case resting comfortably. A sentimental "still life".

I gave my father's .25-06 (Ruger No. 1) to his best friend when Dad passed. Last summer the friend (now one of my best) phoned me and said on my next visit I would be taking it home. The very first rifle I bought when I came home from the service (having all my guns stolen) was a Browning 78 in .25-06. The single shots now make a "helluva pair to draw to" as Dad would have said.

You may find the partition bullets to be a bit more finicky toward accuracy than other bullets. This is because that is not the primary purpose of their design.
You may also find the Accubonds to be a bit less accurate than the Ballistic Tips. (Another result of purposeful design.)

My bullet of choice for the .25-06's (three of them here now: somehow a Model 70 snuck in the door to snuggle with littermates) is the 100gr Ballistic Tip. Certainly if I was to chase elk with the caliber, I might be looking at the Partition or Accubond. The 100gr has resulted in lightning kills on goats and big muleys, and with the 26"' barrels on the single shots, that bullet will run right behind .257 Weatherby factory velocities. IMR4831 and Match primers round out the recipe.

Safely.

Dad bought the rifle about 30 years ago when we drew our first pronghorn tags and all I had to hunt with at the time way my 30-30 (he had a 7mm mag), since then the rifle has been a true hunting workhorse for both of us.

When I decided to reload for this my thought was just a one do it all load using the Nosler Partition I could hunt deer to elk with it but yeah Ive learned its design isnt as accurate so if needed I will probably develop a load using a Ballistic tip, Accubond or maybe a Swift Scirocco though I dont think I would hunt elk with those in this caliber id have to maintain two sight ins. Right now the Partitions are all I have, and cant even find more of them if needed but I cant complain starting out with these...
 

osprey

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The nosler partition will be as accurate as it needs to be out to the ethical range of your rifle koda. Ultimately that range is up to you but in my mind it is 500 yds or so for deer and 275 or so for elk. I base this on a 120 partition going 3000 fps at the muzzle. I have several hunting rifles that shoot partitions well under 1moa and I expect yours will do the same.
 
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The nosler partition will be as accurate as it needs to be out to the ethical range of your rifle koda. Ultimately that range is up to you but in my mind it is 500 yds or so for deer and 275 or so for elk. I base this on a 120 partition going 3000 fps at the muzzle. I have several hunting rifles that shoot partitions well under 1moa and I expect yours will do the same.

Those distances are nearly exactly what Ive researched on my caliber for those species. Regardless of the bullets precision I wont hunt elk past 275 yds with this caliber, velocity isnt there and after 250ish yds and the hydrostatic shock is gone. Ive done some reading on this, Chuck Hawkes blog has a good way to quantify a calibers killing power, though its a bit subjective I came away with staying under -about- 250yds for elk in this caliber (120g/3000fps). Lots of love for the 25-06 but its a marginal elk gun at longer distances.

Ive never shot past 300yds due to deviation in factory ammo so if the Partitions accuracy can hold Id be happy have a one do-it-all load for this rifle. It would be great to reach 500yds for future Pronghorn hunts without having to rezero for a new load.
 

osprey

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Deer in my avatar was killed a bit over 400yds with a partition out of a 280ai. This rifle has a light barrel so 5 shot groups open up to around an inch at 100 but will hold three shot groups around 3/4”. I have a 243 with a heavier barrel that will put 5 partitions into 1/2 at 100yds. My 270 will also group partitions under an inch. The bullets are definitely up to the task. I really don’t think the external ballistics of a partition will tell on you until you get out past 600yds or so and at that point on big game I am out so it works for me.
 
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Deer in my avatar was killed a bit over 400yds with a partition out of a 280ai. This rifle has a light barrel so 5 shot groups open up to around an inch at 100 but will hold three shot groups around 3/4”. I have a 243 with a heavier barrel that will put 5 partitions into 1/2 at 100yds. My 270 will also group partitions under an inch. The bullets are definitely up to the task. I really don’t think the external ballistics of a partition will tell on you until you get out past 600yds or so and at that point on big game I am out so it works for me.
Thats good practical info to know and I agree with the 600yd limit too. The only game Id like to increase my range on is Pronghorn because its been very difficult for me to get even 300yds from them.
 

Dr Prepper

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What they are advocating is NOT "Full Length Resizing" as defined by full cam-over travel of the ram and total exposure of case to die resulting in maximum possible reforming of the fired case (Such as Joe Six Pack might do with his garden-variety dies in order that his ammunition cycles in both his and his partner's .30-06's, essentially a return to factory dimensions of the case.)

Yes very well said. Even when re reading through my redding die instructions today it said something to the effect of for the most accurate loads you will back the die off and only size enough to fit your chamber.

In other words reiterating exactly what you just pointed out. Almost all (if nit literally every last one of them) is FL sizing by only bumping the shoulder -.002 from chamber dimensions.

I also wanted to point out that the OP's original statement of headspace and cartridge dimensions to the datum line IS basically the same thing.
Its terminology is different when referring to the chamber vs the cartridge.
I hope i didnt confuse that for you. Sometimes it helps to reread through ALL the posts again.

Looks like you are loading for a bolt action.
If using once shot factory ammo you can measure its datum at the shoulder (headspace of your specific chamber) with the calipers and the bullet comparitor sets mentioned on page one.
If using factory new brass you just resize them to full cam over (either in a sample size batch for testing or the whole lot) shoot those and THEN measure to the shoulder datum.

It needs to be fired through your chamber once to be able to bump the shoulder -.002" only then will you have a true point of reference for your chamber, then your fine with FL sizing AND bumping the shoulder in one shot by backing off the FL die in order to accomplish this.

Many people say that the crimping operations are what throw off concentricity and so many skip that step. They accomplish this with a FL bushing die. That way they can swap out the bushing (at a ridiculously low price or $17/bushing:s0002:) and then remove the button expander so it doesnt re open the mouth destroying the work done by precision bushing sizing. Then when they seat their bullets the strictly use neck tension to hold the bullet in place and thats it. No other crimping done.

Most people will agree the best seating dies are those that have an alignment sleeve that fits snugly around a sized case and also holds the bullet perfectly in a cylinder BEFORE seating even begins and throughout the entire seating process. This should result in perfect bullet alignments.
Then when you chamber that round every aspect of it should be ideal to match YOUR chambers HEADSPACE with the shoulder of the case just sitting off the shoulder of the chamber and Every thing in perfect alignment.

I just recently purchased my second set of redding FL bushing dies. They are around $71 for the due only then bushings are $17 each (for the cheap non TiNi coated ones) and then bought a forster micrometer seater die. I only bought the micrometer version because i plan on seating lots of different bullets and will make adj ALOT easier. These dies are for .308's the seater die was $89 the regular non mic version (which is exactly the same sleeve type) is $50-60 so if your mostly seating the same type of bullet theres no real need for the mic version.

Sorry for the long posts.
 
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I also wanted to point out that the OP's original statement of headspace and cartridge dimensions to the datum line IS basically the same thing.
Its terminology is different when referring to the chamber vs the cartridge.
I hope i didnt confuse that for you. Sometimes it helps to reread through ALL the posts again.

Looks like you are loading for a bolt action.
If using once shot factory ammo you can measure its datum at the shoulder (headspace of your specific chamber) with the calipers and the bullet comparitor sets mentioned on page one.
If using factory new brass you just resize them to full cam over (either in a sample size batch for testing or the whole lot) shoot those and THEN measure to the shoulder datum.

It needs to be fired through your chamber once to be able to bump the shoulder -.002" only then will you have a true point of reference for your chamber, then your fine with FL sizing AND bumping the shoulder in one shot by backing off the FL die in order to accomplish this.

Ive been referring to it as case headspace to distinguish where the measurement is coming from but yes its the same thing just not certain how to measure chamber headspace proper.

Ive shot my second reloads now and have had a difficult time making consistent case headspacing setting back the die. It took me a while and by luck to find out why.... somewhere along the way I read to save a once fired case since it represents your chamber so I set one aside and forgot about it. What I learned is that case's primer bulged from firing and I think explained why many of my reloads had smaller case headspace measurements I was struggling to keep consistent. Im not certain how much case headspace variations affect accuracy though but it seems like it would.

edit to add: I was measuring my case headspace after I decapped them. Was getting a smaller measurement than that one I set aside plus variations in how much the factory primer swelled case to case.
 
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SAAMI (Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers Institute) has standardized specifications for all commercial cartridges in the USA, I believe CIL in Europe. All things we manufacture have tolerance (min & max), so the reamer manufacturer has tolerance to deal with for chambering reamers, then the reloading die manufacturers, as well as ammunition manufacturers have tolerance to deal with as well. The goal is to make ammunition that will fit every chamber cut for a given cartridge, both min or max safely. Reloading dies are made to be adjustable, so you can make cartridges to exactly fit your chamber. A couple of ways to get there:
1) save a piece of factory brass shot in your rifle
2) set full length size die down to shell holder and back off 2 full turns (I use washers between to square up dies as they have pretty coarse threads)
3) Lube and size case, look at case neck and should be able to see where sizing is only partially to shoulder
4) Repeat screwing die down incrementally until sizing is close to neck shoulder junction
5)Wipe lube off case, and with a wooden match, smoke the shoulder area of case.
6)Try the case in rifle, repeat screwing die down incrementally until case will chamber, and bolt close with slight "feel"
Bullet seating and books reloading data: Start with low and go up or down as indicated
More data is better, bullets and powders change and new ones over time. Nosler has changed construction of partition bullets from screw machine with relief turned over partition, to impact extrusion, new monolithic bullets (Barnes X, Nosler E_TIP ect.) Compare data from numerous sources (Nosler, Barnes, Hodgdon available on line free of charge. I believe Hornady charges)
Good sources to understand headspace: PO Ackley Handbook For Shooters Reloaders, Fred Zeglin Author Books
It's far easier to explain than write, hope this is helpful, be safe and enjoy!
 

Dr Prepper

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Ive been referring to it as case headspace to distinguish where the measurement is coming from but yes its the same thing just not certain how to measure chamber headspace proper.

Ive shot my second reloads now and have had a difficult time making consistent case headspacing setting back the die. It took me a while and by luck to find out why.... somewhere along the way I read to save a once fired case since it represents your chamber so I set one aside and forgot about it. What I learned is that case's primer bulged from firing and I think explained why many of my reloads had smaller case headspace measurements I was struggling to keep consistent. Im not certain how much case headspace variations affect accuracy though but it seems like it would.
headspace will affect accuracy in the sense that when case capacity varies (or really any variance of any type) changes it ultimately affect pressure and that what effects accuracy in the end.

Thats why people make such a big deal out of low SD's or standard deviations in velocity. The lower you can get those SD's is direct scientific evidence that your KNOW your doing Every thing right. This also means quality brass in most cases (pun intended ;)) if you can get into single digits variation between 5-10 shots your doing excellent. And should def result in the best accuracy. If your not getting good (tiny) groups with single digit SD's than its either:
1. You
2. The scope/optic
3. The barrel (or condition of the bore fouling etc. )
4. Bullet jump to lands.
5. Bullet (terminal stability/rifling twist/weight consistency)

Although i believe the Bullet weight consistency will be apparent in not seeing single digit SD's.

Most go with the absolute scientific method (which this is where im at in practicing my methods) measuring constantly and weighing constantly to know 100% without a doubt. Then i make decisions based on that.

If i cant really get where i want then ill shell out the big bucks fir lapua brass and different seeds but that's a last option.
Im still trying to get my grendel groups smaller im using fairly quality components (mid range or better and all top quality reloading gear) in my grendels im using brand new factory brass all the same lot # and SST's and ELDM's id think id be seeing better groups.

For reference im getting .6" moa with my 5.56 with once shot brass (LC) and some cheaper RCBS "competition" dies. The SD's are sub 20's usually mid teens to low teens (this is also in a home made AR/semi auto and not an expensive barrel, a rainier CHF barrel) the bullets are hornady 75gr BTHP-M's

Since im somewhat "poor" i was using the exact same optic for both rifles and so that takes that out of the equation. I KNOW its nit the issue. I believe it was the same exact lower as well just swapped out.

Just about to start getting into .308 and starting the process all over again.


Yes the once shot brass is invaluable to tell you YOUR headspace. You need to shoot five or so and then get the comparitors to measure the base to shoulder. Keep in mind brass shrinks a little after its fired (normally) otherwise it sticks. So ad a .002" tolerance to your "once" shot brass. And then when you bump that once shot shoulder Back another .002" it should really be about -.004" from your actual chamber.

The other way is casting your chamber with the likes of cerro true casting alloy, or others and then a whole heaping helping of headache if you go that route. Casting is alot better for checking out throat dimension and bore and lands. But it could be done. Most sane people would never think of it. But im not most sane people :confused:
 
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headspace will affect accuracy in the sense that when case capacity varies (or really any variance of any type) changes it ultimately affect pressure and that what effects accuracy in the end.

Thats why people make such a big deal out of low SD's or standard deviations in velocity. The lower you can get those SD's is direct scientific evidence that your KNOW your doing Every thing right.
My thought was the more the case has to stretch to match the chamber during firing the less pressure and accuracy. Right now, and with what little velocity data I have... Im struggling with getting low SDs. Im trying not to beat myself up over that since this is my first time, and focusing on how to improve my consistency. My guess is sizing case headspace consistently is a large component and reloading my factory ammo has been inconsistent from the factory. There was that learning curve with the fired factory primers bulging differently. (edited my comment above...) I didn't know why I was suddenly getting smaller measurements but it was because I had decapped them.
Some things I'm considering next go..... weighing each case and sorting, weighing each bullet and sorting, then load everything from one group only. I dunno just guessing.

tonight I got an email notification on some new Norma brass, which I Immediately bought 50 cases.
 

Dr Prepper

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and reloading my factory ammo has been inconsistent from the factory.
Is the factory ammo all the same lot#?
Ir even same brand?
There was that learning curve with the fired factory primers bulging differently.
Yes even the little "tat" that can stick up from say glock firing pin channels (i know this isnt your case but just for an example.
I deprime my brass with a dedicated lee universal depriming die. (They are very cheap)
Some things I'm considering next go..... weighing each case and sorting, weighing each bullet and sorting, then load everything from one group only. I dunno just guessing.
It WILL help for sure, it wont hurt at all. And it will be just one more thing to rule out. Its just a matter of how much it will help.

Have you deburred flash holes?

And how many powder primer combos have you tried? It could be a combination of those. I hear some people want small primer .308 and 6.5CM etc because they are more consistent.
Then on the other hand i hear all the time about slow igniting powders and having to use a larger or rather magnum primer. Single base and double base powders does matter.
Also generally i hear you usually get the better groups or lower SD's when you hover around max case fill capacity because when your case is full up or even compressed it is also more uniform every shot. The powder wont move in the casing or pile up against the bullet. Far away from the primer flash etc. Its always exactly same position shot after shot.

I noticed about two "charge nodes" when loading for both my grendel and 556. First of all i take the max charge and load down 10% below max. Amd verify it through multiple books or mfgr. Then load up to and sometimes just a little over max to make sure i actually hit max and show a little pressure signs (nothing crazy)
Between -10% max and max i usually see about two charge nodes maybe more. One is usually around or near max case cap or even compressed.

Like i said before.
(This step really is critical)
Save another fired case (save a few really for future reference) and size it fully and slot the neck and put the bullet your using in it by hand and seat it far out (at this point i sometimes measure it to make sure it moves) and then chamber it and extracts it. Catch it when it ejects so it doesn't hit anything and move again.
And then gently measure it (either the COAL base to tip, or best way is to measure from base to ogive with the hornady comparitor set) with a pair of calipers. And repeat this process say 6-10 times (really the more the better especially if variance) if all six come out exactly to the same thousandth of a inch thats good enough (i might measure two more just to be sure)
Then take that and measurement amd load your bullets to that length minus -.02 to -.030" then find your powder node then play with expending this jump further out.
Again Seating the bullet further out will only lower pressure, so theres no worry of pressure raising.

Also test your loaded ammo by smacking the bullet end on a table or peice of wood etc and measuring the bullet to see if it moves. Otherwise you may want to crimp. (Otherwise try to avoid crimping altogether at all costs.


One thing to check right off the bat, you have checked your scope right? Its not moving? I even go so far as to use purple loctite inside my rings to sort of glue the optic in the rings. (If they are cheaper rings like mine, if they are spuhr or bobro or something its fairly pointless) the recoil lug and stock is all tight and mounted firmly?

Is the stock bedded or glassed in any way for accurizing?
What kind of bolt action is it exactly?
Brand/model/builder/parts etc.?
Most importantly factory barrel or aftermarket and maker?

Start watching the TiborasaurusRex videos that dude covers everything extensively ina scientific manner and WILL square you away. Plus hes an awesome guy. Sometimes maybe a little repetitive maybe a little goofey, but creme de le creme as far as accuracy goes. (And you dont have to watch ALL the videos, you shouldnt need corealis effect calcs for hunting ;))
 
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