Calling ww1 1911 experts

[Cerberus Group]

Obviously slide is not correct, should be a Remington UMC slide

The large E on the left side, forward trigger guard
from serial no 1- to about 15,000

 

[Tlock]

Obviously slide is not correct, should be a Remington UMC slide

The large E on the left side, forward trigger guard
from serial no 1- to about 15,000

Ya I knew it was a Colt slide. I wish it was a umc slide!

 

[Cerberus Group]

The NO of the serial number appears correct for Remington UMC frame.

Looks like 88 but can't pick out the last digit.

There are processes that can used to bring out the numbers.
As with stamping, the indent impresses deep into the steel a few thousands below the surface, thus disturbing the grain enough to pick out digits even though the surface may be smooth.

 

[Cerberus Group]

Stocks are not original.

Should have diamonds around the screw holes, with 13 +/- 1 rows of checkering between the diamonds.

 

[Tlock]

Stocks are not original.

Should have diamonds around the screw holes, with 13 +/- 1 rows of checkering between the diamonds.

Also good to know!

 

[RVTECH]

about this pistol

Well, regardless of the serial # issues very NICE early 1911!

I wish the one I posted about several years ago that was brought to me for a possible sale would have looked the same!

Short story was (pre SB 941) I was having a garage sale and had a few guns up for sale.

A guy asked me if I was interested in a 'Army .45' and I said yes and he said he would come back with it later as he lived nearby.

So a little while later he comes back, hands me what looks like an early, original Army leather holster with a gun inside, I remove it, check it, and well, I could ALMOST make out the numbers, words and the 'model of 1918' on it if somebody wouldn't have SANDED IT TO NEARLY BRIGHT STEEL !!

I tried to explain to the guy this was unfortunate and any 'intrinsic' value it had was essentially gone and it was mostly just a 'shooter' or a 'parts gun' and I offered him $450 for it anyway but he declined.

 

[Cerberus Group]

Bottom of main spring housing should have a E

Checkering on the hammer from rear (towards shooter) to front should cover about 3/4 of the spur...and can be either fine or course checkered

That's about all I got for ya

 

[Tlock]

Bottom of main spring housing should have a E

Checkering on the hammer from rear (towards shooter) to front should cover about 3/4 of the spur...and can be either fine or course checkered

That's about all I got for ya

It seems all correct. Thanks again

 

[po18guy]

I had previously talked with @Andy54Hawken about this pistol and he answered alot of my question. Thanks you again Andy......that being said id like to see if anyone else could add any opinions and possible facts. This was purchased from a member here without knowing alot about the history of the firearm. I did have a couple "experts" look at it at the Portland gunshow. I received 2 totally different opinions. I guess my biggest question is was the restamped serial number done by the US government or a private party?

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Any input helps

Post it up on the ColtForum. The best, most knowledgeable collectors there will certainly have solid opinions.

Colt Semiauto Pistols

This Area is for Discussions on All Breeds of Colt Made Semi-auto Pistols and USGI Pistols .

www.coltforum.com

 

[RVTECH]

But then the 'worst' 'vintage' 1911 related issue of mine was at the ripe 'old age' of about 18 I wanted an 'Army .45' - but new little to nothing about them.

OK so a friend of mine tells me he has one for sale and says he will bring it over for me to look at. So he comes over, hands me a holster with a gun in it, I remove it, clear it and look it over.

Well, I do NOT see anything 'Colt' related on it, and it looks pretty plain but I remember seeing the words 'Mfg by the S. Mfg CO.' on the frame....

Well, I wanted a 'real' Colt so I refused it - for the $250 he wanted for it.

It was many years later I learned who the 'S. Mfg CO.' was......

 

[gmerkt]

I wouldn't worry about any legal issues pertaining to this gun. At least not federal ones.

The renumbered pieces of the US military, I always wonder what causes this to happen. Were there legal reasons? It seems like I've read somewhere that stolen weapons were sometimes renumbered to avoid confusion with reporting paperwork previously filed. Or technical reasons? Such as a top end so far gone that they just started over again with a bare frame. And if so, what would be the problem with using the existing serial number?

The Colt slide has the older markings on it. But this design was used for a long time. In this case, it looks like it's been mated to that frame for a long time, the finish appears to be consistent from one part to another.

So a little while later he comes back, hands me what looks like an early, original Army leather holster with a gun inside, I remove it, check it, and well, I could ALMOST make out the numbers, words and the 'model of 1918' on it if somebody wouldn't have SANDED IT TO NEARLY BRIGHT STEEL !!

Over the years, I've seen WW1 era 1911's and Model 1917 revolvers with serial numbers and United States Property markings obscured or obliterated. Even though these guns were sold as surplus via the DCM between the wars, knowledge of that process probably wasn't widely known at the time. Which probably resulted in a certain amount of paranoia about ownership issues down the line.

Do a FOIA request.

Re. FOIA requests. All well and good, but you don't get much relevant history out of most of them from my limited experience. Because records with wider reach just weren't kept back when history was being made.

 

[Andy54Hawken]

Just something to consider with re-arsenal / re-worked US military firearms....

Very often it is a case of "Parts is parts".
The military wants a serviceable firearm...and did care to make sure it was all "parts correct" after servicing.
Collectors obsess over parts and the like...
Which is a waste of time , in my opinion with re-worked / re-arsenal firearms.
A part needed to be replaced....the arsenal found a replacement...the firearm works....that is all that mattered.

I would say that...The pistol in the OP ...is indeed "parts correct"....*
It has been re-worked and GI issue parts were used....therefore it is "parts correct"...
For a re-worked GI firearm.

To say otherwise , takes away the history of this particular firearm.
Andy

* 'Cept....maybe the grips....
That said...I have seen late GI Issue wood grips like these on issued pistols.
Granted...most were plastic at this time.

 

[Tlock]

Just something to consider with re-arsenal / re-worked US military firearms....

Very often it is a case of "Parts is parts".
The military wants a serviceable firearm...and did care to make sure it was all "parts correct" after servicing.
Collectors obsess over parts and the like...
Which is a waste of time , in my opinion with re-worked / re-arsenal firearms.
A part needed to be replaced....the arsenal found a replacement...the firearm works....that is all that mattered.

The pistol in the OP ...is indeed "parts correct"....
It has been re-worked and GI issue parts were used....therefore it is "parts correct"...
For a re-worked GI firearm.

To say otherwise , takes away the history of this particular firearm.
Andy

Yes! From what I have read the remington umc frames where known for being very poor when it came to compatability with other parts. I seen a number somewhere that 5 out of 20 would even function when new off the factory line. Thus making them more scarce in the wild especially as a rework. Seems most where tossed when they got to that point. Im definitely not a collector so it makes no difference to me as long as it works. I just like knowing the history

 

[Cerberus Group]

Just something to consider with re-arsenal / re-worked US military firearms....

Very often it is a case of "Parts is parts".
The military wants a serviceable firearm...and did care to make sure it was all "parts correct" after servicing.
Collectors obsess over parts and the like...
Which is a waste of time , in my opinion with re-worked / re-arsenal firearms.
A part needed to be replaced....the arsenal found a replacement...the firearm works....that is all that mattered.

The pistol in the OP ...is indeed "parts correct"....
It has been re-worked and GI issue parts were used....therefore it is "parts correct"...
For a re-worked GI firearm.

To say otherwise , takes away the history of this particular firearm.
Andy

There you go again...spewing your truth, knowledge and reasoning!

Yes, couldn't be more correct. When the pistol reaches an arsenal for a rebuild, they use what they have on hand that will put the pistol back in service asap.
It is obvious that something was off with the original upper, thus the Colt replacement.

Collectors weren't much in demand, and even so like @Andy54Hawken stated...they are still parts correct for what was done. Still a solid piece of history.

 

[orygun]

Still a solid piece of history.

The best part. A useable piece, too.

 

[the apprentice]

I had previously talked with @Andy54Hawken about this pistol and he answered alot of my question. Thanks you again Andy......that being said id like to see if anyone else could add any opinions and possible facts. This was purchased from a member here without knowing alot about the history of the firearm. I did have a couple "experts" look at it at the Portland gunshow. I received 2 totally different opinions. I guess my biggest question is was the restamped serial number done by the US government or a private party?

View attachment 2217698View attachment 2217699View attachment 2217700View attachment 2217701View attachment 2217702View attachment 2217703View attachment 2217704

Any input helps

Sorry getting late to the party Tlock
But if your the lucky one congratulations I tried but with us on each side of the state it was a logistical challenge and I being old school with mo and him wanting e payment it just didn't work out.

So you have a very rare unique pistol and you have discovered a lot about it so far I can add this :
Sadly yes that's is a real deal
The U.S. government needed a way to re-serial number damaged or defaced frames it looks like Springfield Armory was assigned serial number block X1,181 through X4,385 (these were used starting in 1925 and ended in 1953 ) The frame in question is a Rare Remington UMC frame that was built in 1918 -1919 only 21,676 UMC pistols were made the second rarest pistol made and accepted by the American government With Singer being 1st place.
Hence the word "Sadly"

 

[the apprentice]

Also @the apprentice was also interested in it. So if you have any input it would be greatly appreciated

I have a original unmolested Remington UMC pistols if you have anymore questions please pm and I can get you the answers

ABDA1D4B-603A-4BA5-8A3B-4E774D454974 by Jeff Lee, on Flickr

As far as the old 1911's I am not a expert but I have a few books to help

2787B232-CD45-4061-96CC-5AF84CA1DE11 by Jeff Lee, on Flickr

 

[the apprentice]

Can you tell if has original stocks?

No those were not made until 1924 (when they came out with the 1911a1 model ). if they are Colt stocks I would have to see the back to verify it .
Here is a set of full checked stocks on a 1939 Colt Navy

46C1585C-B0CA-40A1-B17B-FE3615AC5D47 by Jeff Lee, on Flickr

CF87A42F-B9E3-4BCB-8C1B-85044D684B14 by Jeff Lee, on Flickr

 

[Tlock]

I have a original unmolested Remington UMC pistols if you have anymore questions please pm and I can get you the answers

View attachment 2218203ABDA1D4B-603A-4BA5-8A3B-4E774D454974 by Jeff Lee, on Flickr

As far as the old 1911's I am not a expert but I have a few books to help

View attachment 22182042787B232-CD45-4061-96CC-5AF84CA1DE11 by Jeff Lee, on Flickr

Thank you for sharing!

 

[monks]

I have nothing to add constructively, but I want to offer my services pro bono. That thing is a mismatched ugly duckling and I'll take it off of your hands and send it to the island of misfit guns where it will fit in with the others I've collected, um, er, saved. Consider it fast, because I can't just offer this everyday!