California introduces new law restricting people to 55 gal water per day

[etrain16]

No NG up here. No cable neither.

Positives and negatives of remote living. I'd take the remote living over some of those conveniences though.

 

[Kristina]

This has definitely been an interesting thread to read.

The fuel that I think is most viable for home use would be natural gas. There is a way for them to extract the needed hydrogen from natural gas, but at this point that is still a spendy process.

I'm not familiar with fuel cells but I know a little about cracking NG. This is exactly what our endothermic generators at work do. NG is pumped into a retort that is heated to ~1920 degrees. The catalyst inside cracks the NG into co, h2, n2, and trace amounts of h2o and co2. It's hot, it's loud, very maintenance intensive, and pretty much a giant bomb (one of many ) inside our building. It's hard for me to imagine something like this, even scaled down, being safe, viable, or appealing for the average homeowner.

But like I said, I don't know much about it for the application you are describing, just thought it was interesting.

 

[etrain16]

This has definitely been an interesting thread to read.



I'm not familiar with fuel cells but I know a little about cracking NG. This is exactly what our endothermic generators at work do. NG is pumped into a retort that is heated to ~1920 degrees. The catalyst inside cracks the NG into co, h2, n2, and trace amounts of h2o and co2. It's hot, it's loud, very maintenance intensive, and pretty much a giant bomb (one of many ) inside our building. It's hard for me to imagine something like this, even scaled down, being safe, viable, or appealing for the average homeowner.

But like I said, I don't know much about it for the application you are describing, just thought it was interesting.

The tech is beyond me, I'm simply going by reports and articles I've read over the years. When I first read about using NG to make it happen, I was pretty excited because the fuel source (H2) was always the issue for personal use. There may be technology they're looking at that isn't as extreme as the processes in your facility. I really don't know. But I find the concept of a personal fuel cell to be very exciting. I'm hoping to see it in my lifetime. It could be game changer for cleaner power, if they can find a good way to make it work. Maybe Elon Musk can make it happen? His solar cell roof tiles are pretty darn impressive.

 

[OldTengu]

Recently i read an article about a village somewhere in se asia that was salvaging natural gases from their excrement and compost with good results. Photos showed people running gas burners and heaters in their homes. Not sure of the logistics, pretty certain there were safety issues and most of what was shown appeared to be thrown together in the style of johnny cash (one piece at a time, didn't cost me a dime), but seems like it ciuld be refined by someone with plumbing and gas piping knowledge.

 

[Kristina]

@etrain16 it is pretty exciting and it looks like I have some weekend reading up to do!

It is unfortunate that things have to go to sh!t before we are willing to entertain better/different solutions. Better late than never, I guess.

 

[etrain16]

@etrain16 it is pretty exciting and it looks like I have some weekend reading up to do!

It is unfortunate that things have to go to sh!t before we are willing to entertain better/different solutions. Better late than never, I guess.

I think what's most frustrating is that the fuel cell was invented in 1932. They have been in use by NASA as electrical power on-board spacecraft since the beginning of the space race. And the cost of them has come down considerably over the decades. They are proven, reliable and very clean. I can't believe more folks aren't pushing for more research and development.

 

[ma96782]

Agreed, cost has been an issue, and it seems, based on articles I've read, that the failure to adopt the technology on a bigger scale is why the cost hasn't come down more quickly. That said, I read one article (I'll post the link if I can find it again) that shows the cost of fuel cell technology has come down 80-90% over the decades and is approaching an affordable level.

Fuel cell powered vehicles are already on the road - an estimated 4,200 in California alone. Main issue with them is they need hydrogen filling stations, which are starting to pop up. California now has 33 hydrogen fueling stations for 4,200 fuel-cell cars so far Currently Honda, Hyundai and Toyota are producing small runs of fuel cell powered cars.

Considering it's one of the cleanest methods of power production we have, I have been hopeful for a long time we'd see it become much more mainstream. But I seem to see the same thing - blocking this tech from wide ranging adoption because it could ultimately kill, or at least hamstring, utilities that make money generating and distributing power. Plus, with a whole home fuel cell, you could, in some ways, go 'off the grid', something governments and utilities aren't real crazy about.

You're right about the catalyst issue. There are, I believe, currently 5 different methods for constructing fuel cells - the most expensive are the most efficient. But I think if consumers had the chance to really start putting them to use, the free market would kick in and find a way to reduce costs as mass production started rolling. Nothing seems to drive innovation, development and cost savings like consumer demand. I thought years ago we'd have them readily available by now - but clearly there is something else going on that's preventing adoption of this very well proven, and very clean, form of energy production.

Be careful what you wish for.....it has a way of turning on you.

Example:
1) Dependence/initial costs/maintenance of a massive infrastructure of pipelines and/or transmission lines.
2) Pollution.....upon the trashing of old technology. Unless recycled. Of course, then you'll need an industry to recycle. Perhaps even a Govt. subsidy might be needed.
3) Fuel cell and elec. cars......loss of "gas taxes" that have traditionally been used to maintain the streets and hi-ways. Thus, the Govt will increase the taxes on gas users. Adversely affecting the poor......as they are less likely to have a newer more efficient car. Do Tesla owners really need another tax break?
4) Even the higher usage of an energy product has it's downside. Like......higher elec. usage may lead the USA to more towards nuclear power (waste problems) or the need to expand oil/coal power plant building (thus, more air pollution). Wind power....OMG....think of all the dead birds!

But.....
If I have a fuel cell to power my mountain top home. Hummmm......I could see that. Damm what others may think about the downside of the heavy metals used etc... to make the fuel cell. Because, all that would mean is that, I'm RICH! Maybe, I could also pave that long driveway to my home (you know, for my Tesla)?

Aloha, Mark

 

[The Heretic]

Farmers have been using methane from manure for decades to help power their farms. It isn't really that practical unless you have a LOT of manure, like a dairy farm or a pig farm.

As for tax breaks - those are to encourage the adoption of the e-vehicles to bootstrap the industry such that sufficient momentum can be gained to push it into the mainstream.

I am for e-vehicles and solar/etc. because:

1) There are many ways of generating electricity. Regardless of the fuel you have, you can use it to run some motive machine that will turn a generator which in turn will produce electricity. Or fuel cells can convert fuel into electricity. But the common thing is the electricity; if we have machines (vehicles, etc.) that are powered by electricity, then we are good. Also, electricity can be stored temporarily, and it can be transmitted long distances so we can have plants that generate it and those plants can be specialized and have the necessary mechanisms to deal with any pollution they may generate, if any. Vehicles on the other hand need to be light and small, so they are not as good at dealing with pollution.

2) Electricity is well understood and we know how to use it efficiently. An electric motor can be controlled intelligently and it can even be used to regenerate power when used as a brake.

3) Electricity is something that the individual can generate, whether mechanically of via solar or whatever. The infrastructure is mostly already in place - especially to generate and distribute it. The price is fairly stable because of public utilities and competition (especially via 'alternative' means to generate it, such as solar and wind). So for first world countries, using electricity allows them to be independent of those countries that supply them with petroleum or coal. Solar allows some individuals to be independent too. The main bottleneck is storage, but people are working on that - with the battery factories that Tesla and others are building to support e-vehicles, and the infrastructure for recharging them, and having the vehicle charge at home, we will become more independent of energy suppliers - like the petroleum companies (which is one reason why Trump is doing whatever he can to remove the incentives for e-vehicles).

 

[P7M13]

Why do you think they keep coming up with new spiffy reasons to "spend" revenue ?
Ask someone you know who lives in Portland to show you their water bill. Then take a look at the Portland "Art Tax" pie chart and try to figure out where the money goes for that. Why the term "kicker" is so repugnant to Dem's.

Since 2011, I have volunteered at a charity that distributes art supplies to poor kids. We get regular pleas for art materials from teachers, whose positions are provided for by the art tax. What I find appalling is the amount of money from the tax that goes to programs that become entertainment for the wealthy (White Bird Dance) or to overarching management programs where revenue is pissed away. Typical government.

This is why I use freeze dried water.

With so much ablation, bloviation must not be a problem for you, you sublime man.

My brother just went 800 feet to get 6 gpm...........

Astounding. I've had to reprogram pumps across your state to meter properly, in the.
rough area bounded by Buhl, Almo, Rexburg and Dubois.
Some of the wells were delivering as much as 1500 GPM

Oprah reportedly buys Orcas Island estate for more than $8M
Perhaps Oprah is anticipating the water restrictions? I think I remember reading her mansion in Cali was a HUGE consumer of water.

I cannot resist the old phrase, though in this case it has nothing to do with her race: "there goes the neighborhood."

This has definitely been an interesting thread to read.
I'm not familiar with fuel cells but I know a little about cracking NG. This is exactly what our endothermic generators at work do. NG is pumped into a retort that is heated to ~1920 degrees. The catalyst inside cracks the NG into co, h2, n2, and trace amounts of h2o and co2. It's hot, it's loud, very maintenance intensive, and pretty much a giant bomb (one of many ) inside our building. It's hard for me to imagine something like this, even scaled down, being safe, viable, or appealing for the average homeowner.
But like I said, I don't know much about it for the application you are describing, just thought it was interesting.

You in heat treating? I haven't come across any mention of an endo generator since I left the industry.

Recently i read an article about a village somewhere in se asia that was salvaging natural gases from their excrement and compost with good results. Photos showed people running gas burners and heaters in their homes. Not sure of the logistics, pretty certain there were safety issues and most of what was shown appeared to be thrown together in the style of johnny cash (one piece at a time, didn't cost me a dime), but seems like it ciuld be refined by someone with plumbing and gas piping knowledge.

I worked near a Ford plant in Wixom, Michigan. It was powered (somewhat) and heated by the methane piped in from the dump 15 miles away.

 

[Kristina]

@P7id10T yeah, maintenance. Endo, vacuum, and aluminum aging. Pretty neat stuff!

 

[P7M13]

@P7id10T yeah, maintenance. Endo, vacuum, and aluminum aging. Pretty neat stuff!

Drop bottom solution furnace?
Dirty work yet satisfying. I used to design the automated controls, complete combustion system and atmospheric gas system for atmospheric furnaces: austempering, carburizing, nitrocarburizing. We were getting into vacuum nitriding of aluminum and titanium gears when I left. Still have all my combustion texts. Good stuff !!

 

[Diamondback]

Maybe Commief***hole needs to start taking lessons from Israel:
WATCH: Netanyahu Makes Extraordinary Offer To Iranian People

Oh, wait, they hate De JOOS on a level that makes the mullahs look lovey-dovey...