National Bump Stock Ban in effect

[Dwesson]

Atty for GOA:
Hammond called the Trump administration's bump stock ban "sort of weird in that it's saying that a piece of plastic is a 'machine gun.' I think the court also needs to take into consideration that if the piece of plastic is a machine gun, the AR-15 is also a machine gun."

That's pretty ignorant for an attorney working for the GOA.

For the record a lightning link is a machine gun. A DIAS is a machine gun. A Fleming sear is a machine gun.

 

[Dwesson]

He could have, but since we don't have any information either way, its safe to assume he gave them up for nothing. He should have offered the bump stocks in exchange for democratic support of the hearing protection act to de-list suppressors as NFA items.

The idea that suppressors will be removed from the NFA is laughable. Your average joe thinks they have no use except for assasinations, thanks to the movies.

 

[arakboss]

That's pretty ignorant for an attorney working for the GOA.

For the record a lightning link is a machine gun. A DIAS is a machine gun. A Fleming sear is a machine gun.

I think his point was that if the ATF can claim a bumpstock that does nothing to change the trigger mechanism is a machine gun then they could also claim that any auto-loading rifle is a machine gun.

 

[Dwesson]

I think his point was that if the ATF can claim a bumpstock that does nothing to change the trigger mechanism is a machine gun then they could also claim that any auto-loading rifle is a machine gun.

Without a doubt. Unfortunately Trump has no interest in firearms and essentially followed the NRAs lead.

Did they open a can of worms? Maybe, hopefully this can get worked out in a higher court.

Make no mistake, once Republicans are out of office expect to see the pedal put to the floor with gun control.

Expect binary triggers to be banned, braces reclassified, and future legislation banning all private sales of firearms and likely online ordering of ammo.

 

[arakboss]

Without a doubt. Unfortunately Trump has no interest in firearms and essentially followed the NRAs lead.

Did they open a can of worms? Maybe, hopefully this can get worked out in a higher court.

Make no mistake, once Republicans are out of office expect to see the pedal put to the floor with gun control.

Expect binary triggers to be banned, braces reclassified, and future legislation banning all private sales of firearms and likely online ordering of ammo.

The stakes are high we need more pro 2A Legislators in DC.

 

[Slobray]

Without a doubt. Unfortunately Trump has no interest in firearms and essentially followed the NRAs lead.

Did they open a can of worms? Maybe, hopefully this can get worked out in a higher court.

Make no mistake, once Republicans are out of office expect to see the pedal put to the floor with gun control.

Expect binary triggers to be banned, braces reclassified, and future legislation banning all private sales of firearms and likely online ordering of ammo.

So much for the higher courts.....................

Supreme Court won't stop Trump administration's bump stock ban
U.S. Supreme Court refuses to block Trump's gun 'bump stock' ban | Reuters



Ray

 

[Dwesson]

The stakes are high we need more pro 2A Legislators in DC.

So much for the higher courts.....................

Supreme Court won't stop Trump administration's bump stock ban
U.S. Supreme Court refuses to block Trump's gun 'bump stock' ban | Reuters



Ray

Oh that scum bag Roberts refuses to hear it? What a shock.

 

[Jcon268]

The left has been pushing the idea that the 2nd amendment is "not unlimited" for quite a long time. Each time they chip away another item, it gives validation to that idea. Using Chevron Deference to allow the ATF the authority to make the call could be used against any semi-auto rifle. For them, if it didn't say specifically which firearms were protected by the 2nd, then they aren't afforded any protection. Remember guys, we should be happy with muskets.

 

[KKG]

In Seattle they have had ONLY 1,000 turned in and I don't think they'll be getting many more but who Knows or Cares!!!

 

[Dwesson]

The left has been pushing the idea that the 2nd amendment is "not unlimited" for quite a long time. Each time they chip away another item, it gives validation to that idea. Using Chevron Deference to allow the ATF the authority to make the call could be used against any semi-auto rifle. For them, if it didn't say specifically which firearms were protected by the 2nd, then they aren't afforded any protection. Remember guys, we should be happy with muskets.

Gorsuch isn't a fan, get another constitutionalist on the court and you might see a challenge.

In the case of bump stocks, I don't see where Chevron deference is being used by the court as the court is at this point refusing to hear a case. If they do hear a case and defer to the ATF citing Chevron deference, that's different.

 

[Jcon268]

Gorsuch isn't a fan, get another constitutionalist on the court and you might see a challenge.

In the case of bump stocks, I don't see where Chevron deference is being used by the court as the court is at this point refusing to hear a case. If they do hear a case and defer to the ATF citing Chevron deference, that's different.

The idea is that it was the opinion of the BATFE that bump stocks were not machine guns as recently as the Obama administration. This is because one function of the trigger still puts one round down the pipe. They are defering to the ATF in that, because it has similar output (seems like a machine gun), it now all of a sudden is a machine gun. A lot of people bought bump stocks because the ATF declared them not to be. They've then pulled the carpet out from under all of those people. Furthermore, because they've decided that a bumpstock is a machine gun, all NFA rules apply. Obviously bump stocks didn't exist before 1986 and so there are no legal instances of them. Therefore they allowed what is in their professional opinion a "machine gun" to be mass marketed and sold to the public and then are forcing destruction of the item without compensation. I can't see how that is NOT deference.

 

[Dwesson]

The idea is that it was the opinion of the BATFE that bump stocks were not machine guns as recently as the Obama administration. This is because one function of the trigger still puts one round down the pipe. They are defering to the ATF in that, because it has similar output (seems like a machine gun), it now all of a sudden is a machine gun. A lot of people bought bump stocks because the ATF declared them not to be. They've then pulled the carpet out from under all of those people. Furthermore, because they've decided that a bumpstock is a machine gun, all NFA rules apply. Obviously bump stocks didn't exist before 1986 and so there are no legal instances of them. Therefore they allowed what is in their professional opinion a "machine gun" to be mass marketed and sold to the public and then are forcing destruction of the item without compensation. I can't see how that is NOT deference.

It's not Chevron Deference because that refers to an actual legal precedent in Chevron Inc. vs National Resources Defense Council. When "Chevron deference" is cited, it is by the court. The Supreme Court has not taken up the matter and then cited Deference to the ATF (which Gorsuch, among others likely, would object).

(If the court has cited the Chevron case w/regard to the bump stock issue, I retract the above but I haven't seen it yet)

The DoJ instructed the ATF to re-interpret the meaning of a machine gun based on existing law. That's what needs to be challenged, the court can THEN cite deference to the governing body saying they can interpret application of the existing legislation (which would be pretty hard in this case as you have already mentioned, the legal definition of a machine gun and a bump stock are exclusive vis-a-vis the one trigger function bit).

I'm not arguing that this isn't a slippery slope, however I think you'd be hard pressed to argue that:

1. We aren't already sliding down the slope, forget heading towards the edge.
2. The number of Americans that would be affected by having the ATF "re-interpret" a semi-automatic weapon as full auto dwarfs the number of people affected by retroactively classifying the bump stock as a machine gun. Thus would be a much larger attempt at judicial overreach.
3. I wonder if Trump would have even advised the DoJ to task the ATF with changing if the NRA hadn't gave the go ahead.

Note: I love bump stocks.

 

[Jcon268]

It's not Chevron Deference because that refers to an actual legal precedent in Chevron Inc. vs National Resources Defense Council. When "Chevron deference" is cited, it is by the court. The Supreme Court has not taken up the matter and then cited Deference to the ATF (which Gorsuch, among others likely, would object).

(If the court has cited the Chevron case w/regard to the bump stock issue, I retract the above but I haven't seen it yet)

The DoJ instructed the ATF to re-interpret the meaning of a machine gun based on existing law. That's what needs to be challenged, the court can THEN cite deference to the governing body saying they can interpret application of the existing legislation (which would be pretty hard in this case as you have already mentioned, the legal definition of a machine gun and a bump stock are exclusive vis-a-vis the one trigger function bit).

I'm not arguing that this isn't a slippery slope, however I think you'd be hard pressed to argue that:

1. We aren't already sliding down the slope, forget heading towards the edge.
2. The number of Americans that would be affected by having the ATF "re-interpret" a semi-automatic weapon as full auto dwarfs the number of people affected by retroactively classifying the bump stock as a machine gun. Thus would be a much larger attempt at judicial overreach.
3. I wonder if Trump would have even advised the DoJ to task the ATF with changing if the NRA hadn't gave the go ahead.

Note: I love bump stocks.

The ATF executes the law. It's not the ATF's or any other agency's authority to interpret the meaning unless that power is given to them, namely by Congress, hence the deference. We'll skip the "Chevron" part because although that's the precedent which this alludes to, it's simply deference. But what makes this case even more controversial is the plain fact that ATF has ALREADY said plain and clear that BUMP STOCKS ARE NOT MACHINE GUNS. Why are we delegating authority to an agency that can't even remain consistent on its own opinion?

This is EXACTLY WHY we are a Constitutional Republic. Once we start working outside of the lines, it gets messy quick.

The number of Americans affected by a re-interpretation shouldn't be the litmus of its legality. If one American person owned a bumpstock and was turned into a felon because of this course of action, it would be one too many. But we're talking half a million. That's a LOT of felons.

As someone who has renounced his membership with NRA and support for Trump, I'll leave my support where it belongs which is with GoA and FPC.

 

[Dwesson]

The ATF executes the law. It's not the ATF's or any other agency's authority to interpret the meaning unless that power is given to them, [1] namely by Congress, hence the deference. [2] We'll skip the "Chevron" part because although that's the precedent which this alludes to, it's simply deference. [3]But what makes this case even more controversial is the plain fact that ATF has ALREADY said plain and clear that BUMP STOCKS ARE NOT MACHINE GUNS. Why are we delegating authority to an agency that can't even remain consistent on its own opinion?

This is EXACTLY WHY we are a Constitutional Republic. Once we start working outside of the lines, it gets messy quick.

[4]The number of Americans affected by a re-interpretation shouldn't be the litmus of its legality. If one American person owned a bumpstock and was turned into a felon because of this course of action, it would be one too many. But we're talking half a million. That's a LOT of felons.

As someone who has renounced his membership with NRA and [5]support for Trump, I'll leave my support where it belongs which is with GoA and FPC.

Your bolded points in order..

1. Congress can't interpret, nor grant that ability, to any agency. The interpretation of the law is up to the judicial branch. The judicial branch has granted the ability to interpret in specific cases, citing the Chevron case as an example.
   
2. You kept quoting it, thus my response.
3. The ATF says a lot of things and goes back on what they say. It's an agency of bureaucrats. Name an agency which hasn't backtracked on issues and/or not applied the law evenly.
   
4. No one said that's the litmus test. You're going to have a hell of a lot harder time enforcing millions being made felons overnight though, it's just a matter of logistics. You're also going to have a lot more people object.
   
5. I don't know how to break it to you, but if you think Trump is bad, wait until you see the other guy.

You act like the ATF hasn't gone back and forth on the legality of other NFA regulated items before. They have been doing this for decades.

You realize tomorrow they could say "Oh by the way, not only can you NOT shoulder your 'brace' but a BRACE is now a STOCK and you have an illegal SBR", thus a felon. The original Colt Moderator was designated a flash suppressor and the ATF later reclassified the item as a suppressor.

Or more recently, the Akins accelerator stock was re-classified after sale, to a machine gun.

There's not some magical precedent that hasn't already been set here, but if you want to work yourself into a lather and sit out the next election, throw your vote away on a 3rd party or vote for "the other guy" you're not going to get any support from me.

 

[Dwesson]

If anyone is interested, the relevant response by the court, primarily pages 13-15:

https://www.supremecourt.gov/DocketPDF/18/18A963/93301/20190326155523419_18A963 Stay Gun Owner.pdf

 

[Jcon268]

You keep talking as though this had to go to court. It didn't. No lawsuit had to be filed. In any event, the order was given by Trump which made its way to the ATF where they classified, and very incorrectly, that a bump stock is a machine gun. Now if the definition of a machine gun was "anything that fires a bunch of bullets really, really fast!" ....well then I guess checkmate. But that's not the definition of a machine gun.

You seem to be justifying the government turning people into felons because the ATF just does what it wants capriciously. That's called being a FUDD.

If you want to let them keep taking one right away at a time until none are left, then don't call yourself a 2nd amendment supporter. I don't care if it's an accessory or not. Your scope, your mags, your stocks, your grips, your compensators and muzzle brakes....they're ALL accessories.

"They'll never get to do this with semi-autos though" Seriously? Do you watch the news?

Better yet, have you been to California? Try taking whatever guns you own down there. Good luck.

 

[Dwesson]

You keep talking as though this had to go to court. It didn't. No lawsuit had to be filed. In any event, the order was given by Trump which made its way to the ATF where they classified, and very incorrectly, that a bump stock is a machine gun. Now if the definition of a machine gun was "anything that fires a bunch of bullets really, really fast!" ....well then I guess checkmate. But that's not the definition of a machine gun.

You seem to be justifying the government turning people into felons because the ATF just does what it wants capriciously. That's called being a FUDD.

If you want to let them keep taking one right away at a time until none are left, then don't call yourself a 2nd amendment supporter. I don't care if it's an accessory or not. Your scope, your mags, your stocks, your grips, your compensators and muzzle brakes....they're ALL accessories.

"They'll never get to do this with semi-autos though" Seriously? Do you watch the news?

Better yet, have you been to California? Try taking whatever guns you own down there. Good luck.

Lol I'm a fudd...that's rich.

I'm pretty sure my count of NFA registered items speaks for itself.

You keep acting like I support the decision, I don't. I also know it's nothing new for the ATF which you seemed to completely ignore, because it's either counter to your preconceived notion or doesn't support your chicken little attitude.

Go take a look through history, the ATF and congress don't give a sh**t about your 2nd amendment. It's lip service Republicans pay for votes. You somehow have decided "this is it" with slide fire stocks. Like, it's the most egregious violation yet. Maybe you just have a short or selective memory, or are too young to have been impacted by any others.

You've already said you're not going to support Trump in the next election, so you may consider me a Fudd but at least I'm no quisling.

 

[Jcon268]

Lol I'm a fudd...that's rich.

I'm pretty sure my count of NFA registered items speaks for itself.

You keep acting like I support the decision, I don't. I also know it's nothing new for the ATF which you seemed to completely ignore, because it's either counter to your preconceived notion or doesn't support your chicken little attitude.

You've already said you're not going to support Trump in the next election, so you may consider me a Fudd but at least I'm no quisling.

So then why are you excusing what's going on here? Because TRUMP allowed it to happen? Nothing I love more than someone whose allegiance to a sitting president outlasts their fight for their common fellow not turning into a felon.

No, I won't be supporting Trump - he used his voter base to get elected and turned his back on one of the strongest voting issues. "Grab the guns first, give due process second" ring a bell?
Yeah Hillary would have been worse, we get it. But you should learn that life isn't binary and you can STILL hold your president accountable when he's dropped the ball.

By the way best of luck up there in Seattle. You're going to need it as much as I am down here in Portland. We've all got targets on our backs.

 

[Dwesson]

So then why are you excusing what's going on here? Because TRUMP allowed it to happen? Nothing I love more than someone whose allegiance to a sitting president outlasts their fight for their common fellow not turning into a felon.

No, I won't be supporting Trump - he used his voter base to get elected and turned his back on one of the strongest voting issues. "Grab the guns first, give due process second" ring a bell?
Yeah Hillary would have been worse, we get it. But you should learn that life isn't binary and you can STILL hold your president accountable when he's dropped the ball.

By the way best of luck up there in Seattle. You're going to need it as much as I am down here in Portland. We've all got targets on our backs.

I knew what I voted for when I voted for Trump. He wasn't my first pick but he was the only option we had.

I don't excuse what he did, it's wrong. I am just not surprised by it and I also don't see it precipitously leading to a banning of all semi-automatic weapons. Those two things aren't mutually exclusive you know.

Politics in the US is binary today, unless you want to go back to a time neither of us were alive to see and resurrect the bull moose party.

You're going to hold him accountable by not voting for an incumbent president? That's seems like the text book definition of cutting off your nose to spite your face. Unless your hope is Republicans retake the congress and grow spines. Not their our vote in WA or OR count for much but I'll still give to his campaign.

There has virtually never been a time in the last 80 years that firearms legislation has advanced for us on a national level. It's just been incremental infringements, some small, some large.

I had skin in the game, I owned two Slidefire stocks and I paid full price for them. It is what it is. I'm not happy about it but I also know this isn't the first time this has happened before.

 

[Jcon268]

I knew what I voted for when I voted for Trump. He wasn't my first pick but he was the only option we had.

I don't excuse what he did, it's wrong. I am just not surprised by it and I also don't see it precipitously leading to a banning of all semi-automatic weapons. Those two things aren't mutually exclusive you know.

Politics in the US is binary today, unless you want to go back to a time neither of us were alive to see and resurrect the bull moose party.

You're going to hold him accountable by not voting for an incumbent president? That's seems like the text book definition of cutting off your nose to spite your face. Unless your hope is Republicans retake the congress and grow spines.

There has virtually never been a time in the last 80 years that firearms legislation has advanced for us on a national level. It's just been incremental infringements, some small, some large.

I had skin in the game, I owned two Slidefire stocks and I paid full price for them. It is what it is. I'm not happy about it but I also know this isn't the first time this has happened before.

To me this isn't about bump stocks. It's about government running over the top of us when they see fit. In this case, Trump did what he did because a guy in Las Vegas had a bump stock on at least one of his rifles when he decided to murder a bunch of people and the media went nuts with it. I saw it as caving into the demands of the left... and then everyone said "come on guys they're just bump stocks! Just let them go!" They've been taking bits and pieces for decades and all we have to say is "let them go"

The same guys act like they're going to come out guns blazing when they do eventually advance their agenda to ban all semi auto rifles (it's being worked on right now).
Well, I don't see it happening. I see pansies.

When that day comes, good men will die. A lot of them. When you're dead, you don't get to fight for gun rights anymore. Which is why I'd like to see this thing start turning around and heading the right direction before it gets to war in this country. I'd like to be around to enjoy my family and my guns - that's the preferable option here I think for all of us. But it's going to take us standing up for our rights and not just yelling MOLON LABE