Beware of fake silver coins and bars

[gmerkt]

Due to the unsettled times we live in these days, there is a lot of interest in precious metals. Opportunities bring out the worst in humanity. I've been aware of fake US silver dollars and fake Chinese Panda gold coins. As far back as the mid-1970's, there were fake US gold coins from Lebanon around.

Today, the fakery is completely blantant. And very widespread due to the internet. I guess I've been a little late to the party on just how widespread this has become. US Silver Eagle bullion coins are very widely faked. Not only are they sold on eBay, worse, they are sold on Amazon and Walmart. They will appear as header advertising in searches. When you see a Silver Eagle offered for $7.95, it's got to be fake. You're not going to get what is at the moment a $28 coin for 7.95. The fakes are not being offered as "replicas" or "reproductions." The wording in the online ads emphasizes their genuine nature.

There are many fake silver bullion bars circulating around. From various refiners and mints. From one ounce to 100 ounce. There will be more circulating when unwitting owners become aware they are fake.

There are ways you can verify whether the bar is good or not; you can learn the ways online. The best way is to have someone (like a coin dealer) who has one of the electronic scanners check it.

My advice, do not buy unverified precious metals from sellers other than well-established, reputable coin and bullion dealers. Some even sell on eBay. But there are lots of small sellers who come and go, you take some chances with these.

I have some silver bullion that I've taken in trades within the past year. Trades with private persons for guns I was selling. The PM they offered looked good to me at the time. Today, I took representative samples over to a coin dealer I know and had her scan them. Turned out 100% okay. In future, I think if I'm offered such trades, I'll specify pre-1964 silver US coin only; it's much more difficult to fake.

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[The Heretic]

This is one reason why I would not take PMs in trade in a SHTF situation.

It is took easy to create a very authentic looking PM token today, and there would be little way to authenticate it if SHTF (yes, you could maybe use displacement and weight, but if SHTF would you have the time and equipment to do that if you are on the move?).

 

[Mephistopheles]

Here is one site that may help. FakeBullion.com - Home

 

[Medic!]

With a small scale its easy to verify previous metal coins, rounds, and small bars.


That being said its amazing how few people know how to.
Or even try to verify what they just got in trade or bought.

 

[The Heretic]

With a small scale its easy to verify previous metal coins, rounds, and small bars.


That being said its amazing how few people know how to.
Or even try to verify what they just got in trade or bought.

You can get close to the weight and mass of gold with Tungsten.

The specific weight of tungsten with 19.25 g/cm3 is close to gold with 19.284 g/cm3.

So you need at least a pretty good scale and you need to know the volume of the gold token. Even then, you would only really be safe if you could examine the interior of the token.

For less dense precious metals you are going to have more problems.

Identifying Fake Gold Bars

In the past we have written about fake gold bars and how investors can identify the authenticity of Gold and...

www.celticgold.eu

With well done fakes, you are not going to be able to discern a fake that someone hands you while bartering. It comes down to your faith in the token and the person you are dealing with - similar to paper "fiat" money.

As I said, I am not going to be dealing with precious metals when bartering and I would only purchase them from a known entity (a mint/et. al.).

 

[ma96782]

Let me think about this?

Monex says that silver is worth $23.83 (as of last). But, it might be real or fake? It'll "sit there". The value is in......IF someone else wants it. There is a certain amount of buying and selling "purrr" that is paid (so you're not really dealing in the Monex Price).

I could have gotten a box of 9mm a couple of months back for $10 and now it's easily going for $20. And, in some cases $25. Then.....I mostly know it's REAL just by looking at it. Not to mention the usage if the SHTF.

IMHO......
Yeah.....silver wins for portability.
BUT......ammo wins for capability/utility.

Aloha, Mark

 

[The Heretic]

If SHTF (which it hasn't yet) how much do you think ammo value/cost is going to increase?

Relative to precious metals?

I can take ammo apart, examine it, and put it back together. Once used, I can reload the brass - if I am lucky I can recover the projectile and recover some of the lead. Once the brass has reached its max life, I can melt it down and use it for other things.

One round of ammo can equal 50+ pounds of deer meat which can feed my family for weeks.

 

[Medic!]

You can get close to the weight and mass of gold with Tungsten.

The specific weight of tungsten with 19.25 g/cm3 is close to gold with 19.284 g/cm3.

So you need at least a pretty good scale and you need to know the volume of the gold token. Even then, you would only really be safe if you could examine the interior of the token.

For less dense precious metals you are going to have more problems.

Identifying Fake Gold Bars

In the past we have written about fake gold bars and how investors can identify the authenticity of Gold and...

www.celticgold.eu

With well done fakes, you are not going to be able to discern a fake that someone hands you while bartering. It comes down to your faith in the token and the person you are dealing with - similar to paper "fiat" money.

As I said, I am not going to be dealing with precious metals when bartering and I would only purchase them from a known entity (a mint/et. al.).

Fake gold using tungsten is easy.
A magnet will attract and stick to tungsten.

And silver will weigh 31.1 to 31.4 grams per ounce.
It displaces 2.9 to 3.0 grams of water. And will give you a specific gravity of about 10.5 with .999 fine.

Nothing else is close.

copper- 8.89
aluminum- 2.55 to 2.8
bronze- 7.4 to 8.9
nickle- 8.9
lead- 11.35

So if you get a fake oz of silver. either the weight will be off.
Or the specific gravity [ amount of water it displaces in grams divided into total weight ] will be off.

 

[The Heretic]

Pure tungsten is very weakly magnetic

 

[Medic!]

Yes.
If pure is used.




But silver fakes not conforming to my above?
I want to hear the flaw in that.

 

[Provincial]

I read an article where many banks in China have discovered that the "gold" they have in reserve is actually gold-plated tungsten.

 

[Lilhigbee]

But silver fakes not conforming to my above?
I want to hear the flaw in that.

Pretty simple really. A lead core of about 53% of the volume with a copper shell of about 47% of the volume and silver plated.

 

[Medic!]

Pretty simple really. A lead core of about 53% of the volume with a copper shell of about 47% of the volume and silver plated.

I get a specific gravity of 10.18?

11.35 for lead X .53 = 6.01
And 8.89 for copper x .47 = 4.17

6.01+4.7= 10.18
Far from 10.5 for silver.

Also the silver plating would add weight and go over the 31.1 probably.

Also how to build a shell of copper around a core of lead that melts at a much higher temp?
1,987 degree F for copper and 621.5 degree F for lead.

Even if you did you could bend the coin in half with your fingers.

You could blend the metals I guess but then it would scratch with your fingernail and again bend very easily.

 

[The Heretic]

Also how to build a shell of copper around a core of lead that melts at a much higher temp?
1,987 degree F for copper and 621.5 degree F for lead.

Stamping.

Then you electroplate it.

 

[Medic!]

Stamp? With a core of lead?

Again it would bend with that lead content.
Not to mention the specific gravity is wrong.

 

[The Heretic]

Stamp? With a core of lead?

Again it would bend with that lead content.
Not to mention the specific gravity is wrong.

Yes, you stamp the lead (which would have tin mixed in to make it plenty hard to resist bending) to get a "slug" then you stamp the copper around that, then you electroplate it with silver. With some experimentation and metallurgical knowledge I think a counterfeiter would be able to come up with an approach that would work and be quite profitable.

I am not experienced in counterfeiting or minting coins, but that is one approach I could imagine would work well and be amenable to mass production. A mint that makes valid tokens would not do this, but that wouldn't stop a counterfeiter from making copies of tokens from a good mint and then circulating them - it is happening now.

Sure there are probably ways of detecting counterfeits, but IMO a really well done counterfeit token would not be easily detected by someone on the street. The fact that people a lot smarter and more knowledgable than me have been fooled leads me to think I would just avoid such trade/barter in a SHTF situation - eventually enough fakes would be in circulation that the market would be suspicious of any precious metals someone presents, valid or not.

 

[Lilhigbee]

I get a specific gravity of 10.18?

11.35 for lead X .53 = 6.01
And 8.89 for copper x .47 = 4.17

6.01+4.7= 10.18
Far from 10.5 for silver.

Also the silver plating would add weight and go over the 31.1 probably.

Also how to build a shell of copper around a core of lead that melts at a much higher temp?
1,987 degree F for copper and 621.5 degree F for lead.

Even if you did you could bend the coin in half with your fingers.

You could blend the metals I guess but then it would scratch with your fingernail and again bend very easily.

You said "about 10.5" and I said "about 53%" and "about 47%". Shuffle the numbers until you are happy. The point is, it isn't difficult.
As far as how to do it, there are a great many clever people in the world who would do it just as a lark. If people will make a jacket out of a spent .22 shell for a lead-cored .224 bullet just for the hell of it, how much work do you think they would go through for something profitable??

 

[The Heretic]

Counterfeiters have been doing this for millennia

With the amount of currency circulating and the ability to mass produce tokens, it is only going to get worse IMO.

 

[ma96782]

Chinese Govt Fake Gold. So, what part did the CCP play in this one (start at 00:46)?

Aloha, Mark

 

[gmerkt]

Fraud and corruption in Chinese government and business is wide and deep. The Kingold episode isn't the only one involving fake gold. Fraud of this size has to involve many people and entities. Lots of them interconnected to centers of power. So that when something blows up, deniability is the way out.

China is the top gold producing country in the world. The government tries to control movement of gold into and out of China. Seems like a country that is a large producer of gold would be a good one to try and do the old switcheroo on the scale of the Kingold scam.

The Kingold fake metal was being used as collateral for a loan. What better way to raise a large amount of free money.