Washington Better law enforcement tools

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I don't have the answer but if mace and tasers are not always effective And you don't want to Quickly and positively put somebody down with the baton (whether it's to the head or somewhere else), Then currently you're left with bullets .....and look at the fallout from what happened to Jacob Blake ......granted that kind of a shooting doesn't happen that often but I don't think the political atmosphere is going to tolerate the use of bullets the way it has in the past ......Which is why I'm hoping somebody can come up with something like an epipen To create A nearly instantaneous unconscious state.
Having said all that I would have to ask which is most likely to cause death, a baton used to put a person unconscious or a bullet?

Someone mentioned better training for officers but I think the general public needs training also There has to be a realization and an agreement That if you answer an officers questions or peacefully submit to arrest there will be no violence perpetrated by anybody..... It can all be sorted out later by the attorneys or further discussion ...Officers should not be expected to be ultimate fighters and currently if you threaten them even with fists , but especially with any kind of weapon they're going to be thinking " I want to go home to my kids tonight" And you Mr. John Q Public are going to get hurt...

For those that are about to be questioned or arrested who are not of sound mind or doped up, I don't have the answer but I think the officers reasoning that he wants to go home to his family still applies .....if you willingly got doped up and went out into public you're putting yourself at risk.... If you're insane or mentally defective you shouldn't be out on a street in the 1st place which of course goes back to the cuts clear back in the Reagan administration that eliminated a lot of mental hospitals.
 
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Not going to happen but if it was up to me? Some LEO stops someone and they refuse to get out of the car they should be drug out by the neck. They get hurt? Too damn bad. I have for a while now started to wonder if Taser did not "tone down" their stuff after a couple people high as a kite died. I never used to see anyone able to fight one. Now I am seeing many where someone is able to fight past them.
When I was young if you spit in some Cops face you would be picking up teeth. If that person ends up badly hurt? Too damn bad, they made a choice. They keep training people that Cops are Hitler and then blame Cops when things get out of control. Now some cities who were screaming defund the Cops are screaming where are the Cops. Anyone with a brain knew this was going to happen. Screw them. They wanted this, they voted for this, let them see what it's like when they call 911 and they get comforting talk over the phone while they are being attacked.
 

bgdawgrr

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Solid premise question. You’d think less lethal would have come further.
Not an expert, but have done research into tasers for possible personal purchase.
I believe the newer generations are significantly less effective. They are “safer” as they have more protection for the tazed.
Less dart penetration, lower power, etc, to protect targets from heart damage, bone strikes and made more accurate, less painful and longer ranged. The trade off is effectiveness.
As far as tools, perhaps if we as a society, take crimes more serious, people would not choose it as a career. Shoplifting is a ticket, protecting your property can get you more prison time than the thief/vandal/arsonist/invader.
Corporal punishment is looked upon as child abuse. Wasn’t that long ago disrespecting a teacher resulted in a hack in the hallway after class, if not during. We looked at our classmate behavior as unacceptable as opposed to encouraging it today.
Finally, I believe a large percentage of next gen officers are...“scared” I think best describes it? They don’t want to go hands on. Let’s look at Jacob Blake shooting. The whole video, I’m saying “take him down!“ They didn’t and look at the result. Philanders Castile was shot because offer was scared he had a gun he told him about.
Breeona Taylor killed as police blindly shoot into apartment. Seemed very panicked response.
I think police are not recruited or trained with the proper mindset. Are they the sheepdogs to deal with the wolves, or are departments and lib cities looking for sheep with bells to protect the rest of the sheep? Seems lead sheep is the current answer.
 
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The heart of Man is a great place to start, the better each of us are being upright citizens (Internal Government) then the smaller external Government needs to be. Simplistic, I know...
Simple perhaps, but brilliant.

Having said all that I would have to ask which is most likely to cause death, a baton used to put a person unconscious or a bullet?
You and a few others have brought up the issues with less lethal, less than lethal, control holds and injuring force. In many locations these are all being considered deadly force under certain conditions...which is making them impossible to know when to use them (related to how you will be judged later).
 

Andy54Hawken

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Just something to consider here :

Never underestimate the will or determination of a man , that feels like he is in a corner with nothing to lose and everything to gain.
Bullets , tasers , Vulcan nerve pinch , whatever...can all fail to stop a man in this mindset.

Please note that I am not saying that the above are useless.
And I do agree that training , and a understanding that what works for law enforcement in my small town of Everson , will ( and should ) be different than police work in Chicago , is needed.
Andy
 
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Just something to consider here :

Never underestimate the will or determination of a man , that feels like he is in a corner with nothing to lose and everything to gain.
Bullets , tasers , Vulcan nerve pinch , whatever...can all fail to stop a man in this mindset.

Please note that I am not saying that the above are useless.
And I do agree that training , and perhaps a understanding that what works for law enforcement in my small town of Everson , will ( and should ) be different than police work in Chicago , is needed.
Andy
That is certainly true when dealing with some on drugs. I regularly have to take down people jacked up on dope. Some of the scariest ones are small females who seem to be like trying to grab an angry tiger. What I see a WHOLE lot more of is people who just have a huge chip on the shoulder, begging Cops to touch them. Then start sceaming as soon as Cops do. Then of course want to sue. This is a couple generations of training. Training that they do not have to do anything they do not want to do, like get out of the car when they say you are under arrest.
People who will pull a weapon on a Cop because they have been told it's their "right" to resist with force. These guys are not fighting for life. They know full well all that is going to happen is they go to jail. Often for an amazing short time. Instead they fight and often go for a weapon. Then when shot riots break out. Voters who live there deserve to live with no Cops. Let them see what they voted for and enjoy it.
 
The problem with most less-lethal tools and maneuvers (batons, OC, strikes, counter-joints, impact munitions) is they rely on pain to bring compliance. That works on normal people or in training because no one likes pain. But, your pain threshold changes with adrenaline and substances. To become proficient enough in jiu-jitsu would require a lot of training and would result in lots of injuries. When I went to the academy, we flat out brawled. There were holes in walls. But, people got hurt.

Taser came along as a true incapacitation tool. When you get a solid connection, neuromuscular incapacitation (NMI) can occur. Some drawbacks to this is they don’t work great if you don’t have a major muscle group between the darts. If you’re too close and the darts don’t spread, you won’t likely effect enough muscle to achieve NMI. If you’re too far, the darts may not penetrate clothing, or you may miss. Follow-ups are slow if you don’t have a two-cartridge taser.

Depending on which circuit court you work under, Tasers can be categorized as control tools or an impedance tool. Control tools/tactics are used to gain compliance with non-cooperative people. This used to be the norm but it became a crutch and lots of Taser related injuries occurred, mostly from falls and the rare dart to the eyes, nipples, or genitals.

This lead to rulings in some regions, such as the 9th Circuit, that categorized Tasers as an impedance tool which requires an actively aggressive behavior before deployment. This makes a good Taser deployment even more difficult because the subject is generally a lot more animated and unpredictable at this point.

Using medications to subdue people isn’t new.
Mental institutions and hospitals have been doing it for a while. What makes this possible is the enclosed and controlled environment that is supervised by onsite medical. Using this in the field in a dynamic situation would be very difficult unless it was the preplanned course of action. If you know that a guy has issues because of past interactions, it may be possible to mobilize a team if you have the resources. In most cases, you’d have no information going into a situation. Introducing sharps is a whole other ballgame.

The problem I see that causes most complaints about force is people don’t fight anymore. Many don’t play sports, especially contact sports. Everything looks “excessive” to anyone who has never had to do it.
 

DD44Dostovei

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I bet if cops started shooting ANY AND ALL non compliant males in the penis we would have 110% compliance and virtually no crime.

Think about this...once a few non compliant criminals of all races, beliefs, levels of intoxication and mental health receive a jacketed hollow point circumcision there will be no issues of disparity of force or bias.

This is the solution
 
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(Language advisory...)
This has LONG been the real answer. Cop tells you, you're under arrest? You can comply and let a court hear you, or you can choose to try to fight. If it was up to me the ones who choose fight would have ZERO recourse for what happens to them. Sadly adults no longer are expected to be adults. Everyone want to act like they are 5 years old again and it's all someone else's fault.
 
OP
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It's not sounding like there is any slam dunk solution here. We could see changes pushed down from Washington, or the falderal will die down and local jurisdictions will continue to set their policies.
I'm not really hearing anything other than the oddball I mentioned: you announce the intention to question or arrest. If the suspect begins to leave the area, and no one else appears to be in imminent danger, you let them go, note license plate if they're driving, and make plans for other teams to make a wee hour arrest.
I know, sounds ludicrous, but a department could theoretically make this decision if the blow back from suspect injuries, deaths ( or officer injuries) is bad enough.
Mace and tasers haven't been around forever, so maybe technology will come up with something.
 

Jonnyuma

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I can take that one of two ways; you're conflating my statement with an alliance to either of those groups, or you see no value in my statement. It is my considered opinion that BLM and Antifa want anarchy and no US at all, which is not what I'm interested in.

Do you not think that this country would be great if every person could get a leg up in one way or another? I'd like to see every person, when they turn 18, serve in some civil capacity. From highway clean-up, forest service, helping build roads, working in soup kitchens, all the way up to military service like the Israeli have to do. At the end of your service you can re-up or take a 2 year scholarship to a college of your choosing. Not only have you worked a job and gotten paid for doing it, but you've invested your time in to being able to afford higher education. Much better than the "free school for everyone" call the Bernie-bros want.

Do something like that and you've got a youth citizenry that has a sense of civic pride and a direction. At that point crime drops, and you've only got those with emotional problems who are causing harm.
I think that's pretty solid, but it bumps up against the nanny/welfare state pretty hard.
As individual citizens, we should never be beholden to any government entity. A sense of purpose and real-world experience are valuable and not to be discounted, but I don't want the government MORE involved in our lives.
We have a national character, but we aren't "a people" beyond that... we are individuals, responsible for our decisions and where those decisions lead. Elected officeholders are not the boss and should never be allowed to tell us what to do.

I'm not insane, I say all of the above advisedly... in the vain or original intent, not necessarily the reality on the ground. It seems to me that we've strayed far enough from the Constitution, I'm not willing to cede more ground.

Similar to gun control, its looking for a legislative solution to a societal problem
 
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Elected officeholders are not the boss and should never be allowed to tell us what to do. Speed limits. Smoke detectors. Seat belts. Pollution laws.
Which of these restrictions on individual behavior are illegitimate?
 
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It's not sounding like there is any slam dunk solution here. We could see changes pushed down from Washington, or the falderal will die down and local jurisdictions will continue to set their policies.
I'm not really hearing anything other than the oddball I mentioned: you announce the intention to question or arrest. If the suspect begins to leave the area, and no one else appears to be in imminent danger, you let them go, note license plate if they're driving, and make plans for other teams to make a wee hour arrest.
I know, sounds ludicrous, but a department could theoretically make this decision if the blow back from suspect injuries, deaths ( or officer injuries) is bad enough.
Mace and tasers haven't been around forever, so maybe technology will come up with something.
First part of your comment: "The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help." Personally I take this more from the federal government than a local one. Local generally knows what their community needs better than someone in DC. Can their be some assistance at the federal level? Sure.

Part two: This has been suggested and done in some cases. Actually it has been applied in Portland for the last 100 nights really. Do nothing, try to follow up (which is EXTREMELY more labor intensive than arresting and solving the problem immediately) and notice problem still persists. Criminals resist nearly always for a reason (hidden dope / gun, they just robbed a liquor store or killed someone, have warrants or suspended driver license) so now they get to ditch the dope, gun, body etc. Again, I appreciate your very thoughtful input and suggestions on this topic. It is great having discussions like this!

Elected officeholders are not the boss and should never be allowed to tell us what to do. Speed limits. Smoke detectors. Seat belts. Pollution laws.
Which of these restrictions on individual behavior are illegitimate?
Here is my $.02 take. As an officer who was tasked with enforcing laws, I looked to the United States Constitution as my guideline. We all have rights. But where to your rights end? When they infringe on my rights. (Notice I said rights, not feelings.:cool:) So let's take speed limits as an example. Why are they there? So someone else does not kill me because they want to drive a certain way; this would infringe on my rights. Most traffic laws are in this category. Now is someone wants to argue that helmet laws do not fall into this realm, I have to agree that it is definitely not as clear cut. "The greater good for society" is a slippery slope.

So, relevance to NWF specifically, me owning a black rifle blaster with scary pistol grip, flash hider, fully-semiautomatic with the kung fu grip...does not impinge on anyone's rights.

So your list (with the possible exception of seatbelts) are good examples of how others are effected by the actions of others and why laws are both important and legitimate. Good examples.
 
OP
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First part of your comment: "The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help." Personally I take this more from the federal government than a local one. Local generally knows what their community needs better than someone in DC. Can their be some assistance at the federal level? Sure.

Part two: This has been suggested and done in some cases. Actually it has been applied in Portland for the last 100 nights really. Do nothing, try to follow up (which is EXTREMELY more labor intensive than arresting and solving the problem immediately) and notice problem still persists. Criminals resist nearly always for a reason (hidden dope / gun, they just robbed a liquor store or killed someone, have warrants or suspended driver license) so now they get to ditch the dope, gun, body etc. Again, I appreciate your very thoughtful input and suggestions on this topic. It is great having discussions like this!


Here is my $.02 take. As an officer who was tasked with enforcing laws, I looked to the United States Constitution as my guideline. We all have rights. But where to your rights end? When they infringe on my rights. (Notice I said rights, not feelings.:cool:) So let's take speed limits as an example. Why are they there? So someone else does not kill me because they want to drive a certain way; this would infringe on my rights. Most traffic laws are in this category. Now is someone wants to argue that helmet laws do not fall into this realm, I have to agree that it is definitely not as clear cut. "The greater good for society" is a slippery slope.

So, relevance to NWF specifically, me owning a black rifle blaster with scary pistol grip, flash hider, fully-semiautomatic with the kung fu grip...does not impinge on anyone's rights.

So your list (with the possible exception of seatbelts) are good examples of how others are effected by the actions of others and why laws are both important and legitimate. Good examples.
Yes figuring out when my exercise of "freedom" ( perhaps even in violation of laws) is actually having a negative effect on others is tricky. I'm going around and around on this with some in the evangelical community. My church is abiding by the mask/distancing stuff and resuming indoor services next Sunday. Some think they're exercise "freedom" my meeting and singing with no precautions. Hey if you want to off yourself, go for it ( Darwin award), but you would need to promise that you will go NOWHERE other than your house and your church. off topic, I know.

I'll never forget when I lived in the Sacramento area and the Sheriff went on talk radio to say "my deputies have a right to go home to their families at night."
I wholeheartedly agree. Somehow we have to find a way to avoid the Jacob Blake 7 shots in the back. William Bar claimed less than a dozen blacks were shot to death per year by law enforcement. The data actually shows 235 last year, but don't get me started on Barr.
 

bbbass

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Totalitarianism, democracy, representative republic, or chaos and anarchy.

The choice of what this society wanted was made long ago. Our forefathers decided that society would cede a certain level of authority to government. While it may feel great to say, "You're not the boss of me", it's really not the point. In the long run SOCIETY decides the rules. Don't like a law, see if you can get enough people in SOCIETY to get it repealed or changed. Don't like an elected representative, see if you can get enough people in SOCIETY to replace them.

The problem enters when govt becomes so huge and so corrupt that the people no longer wield the power over the govt. And the MSM, as ever, is able to manipulate the masses in favor of the controlling elite interests.

As far as law enforcement and tools, SOCIETY elects the city leaders and all flows from there. Right now, SOCIETY is having a conversation about what kind of policing we want. It's normally a slower process and that's probably a good thing. Hot heads and hearts make mistakes!!!
 

bbbass

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Yes figuring out when my exercise of "freedom" ( perhaps even in violation of laws) is actually having a negative effect on others is tricky. I'm going around and around on this with some in the evangelical community. My church is abiding by the mask/distancing stuff and resuming indoor services next Sunday. Some think they're exercise "freedom" my meeting and singing with no precautions. Hey if you want to off yourself, go for it ( Darwin award), but you would need to promise that you will go NOWHERE other than your house and your church. off topic, I know.
Rant:

One of our local "evangelical" churches decided to ignore the ruling of The Great Goddess in Salem regarding holding services, maintaining limits on attendance, physical distancing, and mask wearing. They then invited a guest pastor/speaker from Seattle, just after all the nursing home spread of covid there, and had a "meeting" with about 300 churchgoers, packed em in, complete with laying on of the hands. We went from zero cases in Union County to 240 in one week. Then up to 400+ from there. Hospital staff that attended brought the disease into the hospital. When it was publicized what had happened, the pastor said that he believed it was all in the hands of above. That's great, but what he did affected an entire community and caused illness and death. :(:(:mad::mad::mad::mad:

I'm not a big fan of Brownstain and her emergency orders, but caring what happens to your fellow man and being prudent should have taken precedence. We were created with free will, but we were also created with a brain... we should use it!!!

Rant off
 
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Yes figuring out when my exercise of "freedom" ( perhaps even in violation of laws) is actually having a negative effect on others is tricky.
Amen to that. It's not as black and white as it would seem.

Actually I think the mask thing is a good example. It used to be that if you were the one sick, you could be quarantined to protect others. But you had to be sick. Now, we are all being treated as sick. If I'm in a vulnerable population then I should (if I chose) wear a good mask and take precautions to protect MYSELF. Here is where rights come in...do I have the right to force others to make me safe? Personally, I don't think so. My main issue is that we are not wearing masks to protect ourselves, we are PURELY wearing masks to protect others. For example, airlines are not allowing vented masks (and since they are private companies I 100% agree they can do this if they wish). One requires two layers of fabric (so neck gaiters are not allowed). My N95 masks for P100 filter systems are very good...for me. But because they are both vented I am not allowed to use what will best protect me because now I'm tasked with protecting others, placing myself at more risk.

Sounds like a gun control argument doesn't it?
 

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