Washington Better law enforcement tools

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I wasn't sure which forum to put this in but I wanted to talk about the tools that are available currently to your typical law enforcement officer and how that might be improved .....are tasers really that ineffective ??? we seem to keep seeing videos lately of people who were resisting arrest and tasers were basically ineffective ....we also keep reading about various choke holds that sometimes become fatal and then if the taser is truly ineffective it results in the use of the officers firearm ...
with all the
Technological advances we see can't we come up with some tool that will render a civilian harmless or unconscious rapidly and effectively making the use of bullets less necessary?
 

darkminstrel

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How do you propose to accomplish that?
Through a comprehensive restructuring of the current US system of education, welfare, mandatory civil service at the age of majority, and the complete redrawing of every district by an autonomous non-political agency. All things that the citizens as a whole can't agree on.

Don't have to resort to crime if you don't grow up impoverished without any hope of succeeding.
 

joken

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Through a comprehensive restructuring of the current US system of education, welfare, mandatory civil service at the age of majority, and the complete redrawing of every district by an autonomous non-political agency. All things that the citizens as a whole can't agree on.

Don't have to resort to crime if you don't grow up impoverished without any hope of succeeding.
Antifa and BLM are currently working towards that goal.
 
OP
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I don't think the defund movement is going to do much. Budgets can be adjusted but the majority of the people certainly don't want to see the end or decimation of police departments. Bad actors need to be identified and shown the door like with any organization.
It may be that mace and tasers work on most people resisting arrest. If someone is so doped up that a taser has no effect, they deserve a baton to the head. I was thinking that something like an EpiPen with a knockout drug might be helpful. You can't use a paralyzing drug because they'd stop breathing.
In some situations departments might just decide to let a "perp" go, figuring better to catch them at home at 3am rather than resort to bullets.
 

darkminstrel

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Antifa and BLM are currently working towards that goal.
I can take that one of two ways; you're conflating my statement with an alliance to either of those groups, or you see no value in my statement. It is my considered opinion that BLM and Antifa want anarchy and no US at all, which is not what I'm interested in.

Do you not think that this country would be great if every person could get a leg up in one way or another? I'd like to see every person, when they turn 18, serve in some civil capacity. From highway clean-up, forest service, helping build roads, working in soup kitchens, all the way up to military service like the Israeli have to do. At the end of your service you can re-up or take a 2 year scholarship to a college of your choosing. Not only have you worked a job and gotten paid for doing it, but you've invested your time in to being able to afford higher education. Much better than the "free school for everyone" call the Bernie-bros want.

Do something like that and you've got a youth citizenry that has a sense of civic pride and a direction. At that point crime drops, and you've only got those with emotional problems who are causing harm.
 
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OP
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I'd rather not get off into BLM/Antifa since I'm asking about better tools for law enforcement. I would just say that those terms ( BLM,Antifa) don't mean much without a detailed description. Many of those protesting unjustified police killings don't even know who the so-called leadership of those organizations are.
I mean on the face of it, what's wrong with "anti-fascist," the entire U.S. was anti-fascist during WWII --- probably still is to a large extent.
BLM and "Antifa" protestors would be better off to immediately go home and abandon a protest once thugs and others start burning and looting, because they just give a legitimate protest a bad name.
 

clearconscience

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I like Jocko’s suggestion. Officer’s need a lot more funding for training.
All Officer’s should be trained in Jiu Jitsu, crisis intervention, de-escalation techniques, minimum physical standards and testing at least twice a year.
and should be spend 15-20% of their time in training.

but none of this will matter if you don’t hold people accountable, stop allowing anarchy, and make the punishment fit the crime.
Minimum sentences, no early release, and stop the revolving door. Stop the plea bargaining circus.
 

WillametteWill

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Thoughtful question OP. Each of the tools noted, carotid control technique, taser, OC spray, were lauded as great tools for ending violent encounters with the least likely result of injury to the suspect or officer. And to varying extent they do work...and you never hear about this in the news. My department used the carotid control technique (AKA choke hold which it is NOT) forever without significant negative results from what I know of. Yet now it is evil. Around the country it has likely saved dozens of lives (both suspects and officers) but you only hear about the negative.

Here is what people need to understand. Violent encounters with hostile, often drugged up suspects or folks with serious mental health issues that should not be roaming the streets (another topic) are flat ugly. There are no rules for the bad guys. They will bite, claw, grab for your gun, solicit friends and family to join in. So when you have criminals playing by these rules people get hurt during arrests.

Here is a trend that few are discussing. Have you seen the video from Tulsa (I believe) where two officers are shot, one killed by a whiny suspect they talked to death (their death in this case)? This guy gets tazed, OC sprayed and after forever, he calls for a friend during all this, and as they finally are trying to pull him out of the car he grabs a hidden gun and shots them both, killing one. Horribly tragic. I listened to a police psychologist and researcher long ago that advised he was seeing a trend that officers that talk too much (ones with actual good verbal skills) often do not take hands on action soon enough and are getting killed because of this.

I hate to Monday morning QB these two officers but as I watched the video I was actually yelling at my computer for one of the officers to grab the the guy's left arm, pull it back and dump him on the pavement. Been there, it works. Instead I watched endless talking (asking him to get out over 40 times) telling him what force they were going to use, allowing him to arrange his getaway car and ultimately having enough time to plan on how to kill one and injure the other officer. It was soul sucking for me to watch, having coworkers killed by criminals like this.

If a video emerges of an officer dumping a suspect on the ground emerges (always without any context) it's on the news. You would have never heard they found a gun. You would never know about all the times this happens and saves everyone. Bottom line is officers can no longer do their job without risk of being fired, sued, doxed etc. That has always been there, but nothing like now.

So to answer your question IMHO, @darkminstrel has the long game answer.
 
OP
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Thoughtful question OP. Each of the tools noted, carotid control technique, taser, OC spray, were lauded as great tools for ending violent encounters with the least likely result of injury to the suspect or officer. And to varying extent they do work...and you never hear about this in the news. My department used the carotid control technique (AKA choke hold which it is NOT) forever without significant negative results from what I know of. Yet now it is evil. Around the country it has likely saved dozens of lives (both suspects and officers) but you only hear about the negative.

Here is what people need to understand. Violent encounters with hostile, often drugged up suspects or folks with serious mental health issues that should not be roaming the streets (another topic) are flat ugly. There are no rules for the bad guys. They will bite, claw, grab for your gun, solicit friends and family to join in. So when you have criminals playing by these rules people get hurt during arrests.

Here is a trend that few are discussing. Have you seen the video from Tulsa (I believe) where two officers are shot, one killed by a whiny suspect they talked to death (their death in this case)? This guy gets tazed, OC sprayed and after forever, he calls for a friend during all this, and as they finally are trying to pull him out of the car he grabs a hidden gun and shots them both, killing one. Horribly tragic. I listened to a police psychologist and researcher long ago that advised he was seeing a trend that officers that talk too much (ones with actual good verbal skills) often do not take hands on action soon enough and are getting killed because of this.

I hate to Monday morning QB these two officers but as I watched the video I was actually yelling at my computer for one of the officers to grab the the guy's left arm, pull it back and dump him on the pavement. Been there, it works. Instead I watched endless talking (asking him to get out over 40 times) telling him what force they were going to use, allowing him to arrange his getaway car and ultimately having enough time to plan on how to kill one and injure the other officer. It was soul sucking for me to watch, having coworkers killed by criminals like this.

If a video emerges of an officer dumping a suspect on the ground emerges (always without any context) it's on the news. You would have never heard they found a gun. You would never know about all the times this happens and saves everyone. Bottom line is officers can no longer do their job without risk of being fired, sued, doxed etc. That has always been there, but nothing like now.

So to answer your question IMHO, @darkminstrel has the long game answer.
This is another one that's hard to watch and got me thinking about how ineffective the taser can sometimes be

 
OP
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This is another one that's hard to watch and got me thinking about how ineffective the taser can sometimes be

I wasn't able to determine what the location was but I did read a follow-up that the officer off to the far right actually wasn't shot he fell back out of the way...... the one closer to the suspect's car was shot but survived...
from my uninformed perspective it would have seemed like about 15 seconds into the tasing when it became obvious it wasn't working he should have been knocked out with a baton.
 

darkminstrel

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should have been knocked out with a baton.
Blunt force trauma to the head can kill the same as a bullet. Plus you have the risk of permanent brain injury and a lawsuit the size of the moon. Batons are for joint strikes and submission not for putting a person down, in all but the most extreme circumstances.

Police are given firearms because when commands fail you move up the ladder and use the tool most appropriate to the situation.

Edit; I was in a rollover car accident in my early 20s. I'm 50 now and have a permanent lisp and short term memory issues due to the very light strike to my skull. The force of a baton could be as much if not more.
 

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