ATF changes stance on how braces are measured

[arakboss]

ATF letter stating that the Magpul AFG is legal for use on AR pistols - Ronin's Grips

ATF letter stating that the Magpul AFG is legal for use on AR pistols

blog.roninsgrips.com

Does the ATF treat angled fore-grips the same as vertical fore-grips?

I received an email today from a client who wanted to know whether an angled fore-grip on an AR pistol makes it an AOW subject to the requirements of the National Firearms Act (NFA) as

johnpierceesq.com

What angled grips are pistol legal? > AR Pistols > AR15.COM

Just built my first AR pistol. I know the magpul ones are fine to use but what about the Fortis shift short angled grip and ones from various over manufacturers?

www.ar15.com

It would be too easy for the ATF to reverse course and write a contradictory letter. It might state that angled foregrips are being used in similiar manner as verticle foregrips. This is allowing users to skirt the rules and allow the operation of a pistol in the same manner as a SBR. It would be a hard argument to say that this isn't happening.

 

[arakboss]

I don't think it is length of the tube, but rather a tube with something that can be shouldered.

It is arbitrary and not very logical, but it is what it is and since it mostly works in our favor compared to the previous situation I am willing to take what I can get sans the possibility of doing away with the unconstitutional NFA.

I agree that it is arbitrary and illogical but I could shoulder an ext tube if it was long enough. So you don't think the feds would challenge the length of pull issue if no brace was attached to the ext tube?

Maybe we could use a folding ext. tube?

 

[arakboss]

Angled grips 89 or less degrees from bore axis should be good to go?

 

[BPOR11]

It already happened in Dayton, that murderer used a pistol with KAK brace.

I'm telling you, this is all engineered.

 

[The Heretic]

I'm telling you, this is all engineered.

To a point yes.

I don't think people are directly manipulated into committing these heinous acts of murder and mayhem.

But you might notice that the pendulum of political sentiments of the public and the resulting people in office, swings back and forth, often farther and farther.

Then we get increasing polarization. This often results in violence at the edges of that polarization.

This is all predictable - it doesn't take a genius to see the probable results.

Then we get a "populist" POTUS prone to mercurial mood swings, purposely invoking violent behavior in his speeches and rants. What does anybody think is going to happen?

Violent acts by demented people.

Acts that can be used to push legislation to disarm the populace.

As the current POTUS loses his support, he will then lose the next election, and we will also probably lose control of the Senate in addition to the currently lost house. The next POTUS comes in, Congress passes anti-gun bills, the POTUS signs them.

Yes - I do believe there may be PTB behind the scenes that are tweaking what is happening such that this all will take place. They would be willing to patiently wait it out - the long game - the end result being a disarmed populace while they slowly gain more power.

They don't need to get directly involved with inciting any mass shooter; they know there are crazies out there. All they have to do is set the stage and wait for the shooter to step forward.

 

[jeff68]

To a point yes.

I don't think people are directly manipulated into committing these heinous acts of murder and mayhem.

But you might notice that the pendulum of political sentiments of the public and the resulting people in office, swings back and forth, often farther and farther.

Then we get increasing polarization. This often results in violence at the edges of that polarization.

This is all predictable - it doesn't take a genius to see the probable results.

Then we get a "populist" POTUS prone to mercurial mood swings, purposely invoking violent behavior in his speeches and rants. What does anybody think is going to happen?

Violent acts by demented people.

Acts that can be used to push legislation to disarm the populace.

As the current POTUS loses his support, he will then lose the next election, and we will also probably lose control of the Senate in addition to the currently lost house. The next POTUS comes in, Congress passes anti-gun bills, the POTUS signs them.

Yes - I do believe there may be PTB behind the scenes that are tweaking what is happening such that this all will take place. They would be willing to patiently wait it out - the long game - the end result being a disarmed populace while they slowly gain more power.

They don't need to get directly involved with inciting any mass shooter; they know there are crazies out there. All they have to do is set the stage and wait for the shooter to step forward.

If gun confiscation by the socialists/globalists/one world gov't types is not a conspiracy theory, I think a handful of innocent lives sacrificed is fine with them. The greater good blah, blah, blah...

 

[BPOR11]

To a point yes.

I don't think people are directly manipulated into committing these heinous acts of murder and mayhem.

But you might notice that the pendulum of political sentiments of the public and the resulting people in office, swings back and forth, often farther and farther.

Then we get increasing polarization. This often results in violence at the edges of that polarization.

This is all predictable - it doesn't take a genius to see the probable results.

Then we get a "populist" POTUS prone to mercurial mood swings, purposely invoking violent behavior in his speeches and rants. What does anybody think is going to happen?

Violent acts by demented people.

Acts that can be used to push legislation to disarm the populace.

As the current POTUS loses his support, he will then lose the next election, and we will also probably lose control of the Senate in addition to the currently lost house. The next POTUS comes in, Congress passes anti-gun bills, the POTUS signs them.

Yes - I do believe there may be PTB behind the scenes that are tweaking what is happening such that this all will take place. They would be willing to patiently wait it out - the long game - the end result being a disarmed populace while they slowly gain more power.

They don't need to get directly involved with inciting any mass shooter; they know there are crazies out there. All they have to do is set the stage and wait for the shooter to step forward.

For the most part I think you are correct. I do believe that some of these things that happen are direct false flag operations, though. When things are fresh into an "event" and you get information that doesn't add up and then it's gone...those are the signs of a false flag operation.

People just don't want to have to search for information or listen to different media outlets or put in a little time thinking...sticking ones head in the sand is much more comfortable. And in a few minutes all will be normal again.. the top of the hour news will explain how crazy the POTUS is.

BTW, define PTB

 

[The Heretic]

For the most part I think you are correct. I do believe that some of these things that happen are direct false flag operations, though. When things are fresh into an "event" and you get information that doesn't add up and then it's gone...those are the signs of a false flag operation.

Initial info is often wrong because of speculation, assumptions, etc. - the media loves to be the first out with info, even if it is often wrong.

BTW, define PTB

PTB == Powers That Be

 

[BPOR11]

Ah, yes... Powers That Be. I think my acronym translator is broken cause it came up with PeanutT Butter

 

[waglockfan]

So let me get this straight.

An AR15, to legally be a pistol, has to measure under 26" in OAL from the rear of the receiver extension tube (aka buffer tube) to the tip of the muzzle device, right?

BUT...If it is over that 26" it is and AOW and requires a stamp?

I would not be using a folding mechanism like the LAW Tactical, nor would I be using any foregrip, just an Arisaka or Knights finger-stop.

I want to use a 10.5" 5.56mm barrel with an SBa3 brace, but doing some measurements of scattered parts and some math I'm not so sure I want to proceed until I understand WTH is going on with this ruling as well as the supposed end to the "war on our 2A rights" that we were promised.

 

[jeff68]

So let me get this straight.

An AR15, to legally be a pistol, has to measure under 26" in OAL from the rear of the receiver extension tube (aka buffer tube) to the tip of the muzzle device, right?

BUT...If it is over that 26" it is and AOW and requires a stamp?

I would not be using a folding mechanism like the LAW Tactical, nor would I be using any foregrip, just an Arisaka or Knights finger-stop.

I want to use a 10.5" 5.56mm barrel with an SBa3 brace, but doing some measurements of scattered parts and some math I'm not so sure I want to proceed until I understand WTH is going on with this ruling as well as the supposed end to the "war on our 2A rights" that we were promised.

A rifle is req'd to be OAL 26"+ and barrel 16"+

edit: firearm not rifle

 

[waglockfan]

I understand that part.

But what happens when a person uses a "pistol" barrel of 10.5" and ends up with something that is 26.5" or so? I did some math with various muzzle devices and I came up with 26 and 3/8 inches.

Should I just use a shorter MD to be under 26"...or?

What about those using a 12.5" or an 11.5" barrel, are thay screwed?

 

[Boboclown]

So let me get this straight.

An AR15, to legally be a pistol, has to measure under 26" in OAL from the rear of the receiver extension tube (aka buffer tube) to the tip of the muzzle device, right?

BUT...If it is over that 26" it is and AOW and requires a stamp?

I would not be using a folding mechanism like the LAW Tactical, nor would I be using any foregrip, just an Arisaka or Knights finger-stop.

I want to use a 10.5" 5.56mm barrel with an SBa3 brace, but doing some measurements of scattered parts and some math I'm not so sure I want to proceed until I understand WTH is going on with this ruling as well as the supposed end to the "war on our 2A rights" that we were promised.

Over 26" and no stock with foregrip=firearm

Under 26" no stock but foregrip=AOW

 

[turbo_vanner]

So let me get this straight.

An AR15, to legally be a pistol, has to measure under 26" in OAL from the rear of the receiver extension tube (aka buffer tube) to the tip of the muzzle device, right?

BUT...If it is over that 26" it is and AOW and requires a stamp?

I would not be using a folding mechanism like the LAW Tactical, nor would I be using any foregrip, just an Arisaka or Knights finger-stop.

I want to use a 10.5" 5.56mm barrel with an SBa3 brace, but doing some measurements of scattered parts and some math I'm not so sure I want to proceed until I understand WTH is going on with this ruling as well as the supposed end to the "war on our 2A rights" that we were promised.

Only include the muzzle device if it is pinned and welded, otherwise its the end of the buffer tube to the end of the barrel. At 26"+ its a 'firearm', which DOES NOT need a stamp, and DOES allow you to run a forward grip since its no longer a pistol.

 

[waglockfan]

So say at 26.5-ish inches, without a MD, but with a brace and foregrip, even a vertical 90° or so like something from Magpul, and I am GTG as an AOW?

 

[waglockfan]

Without the MD on a 10.5" barrel I'm mathing at a hair over 25", so that would then be a pistol. With of course an SBa3 brace. No foregrip though, just the finger-stop.

 

[2A2Dend]

FWIW

 

[jeff68]

FWIW

Thanks. Been looking at the fold options.

 

[Boboclown]

So say at 26.5-ish inches, without a MD, but with a brace and foregrip, even a vertical 90° or so like something from Magpul, and I am GTG as an AOW?

If its 26" from end of tube to muzzle you can have any foregrip. Then it only becomes NFA once you add a stock.