Are the bad guys more proficient with their weapons than LEOs?

[EliDammit]

Force Science News Section I is a pretty interesting and in-depth case study on armed confrontations between street thugs and police.

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[fd15k]

Yeah, some good points are in the report. But I would summarize it like this : street thugs aren't good, but most LEOs are worse.

 

[chemist]

Note that the article is more than five years old. I think the "Gangstas Tac Tips from the FBI" document been discussed here several times already.

One thing about cop shooters is that they're unusual; such shootings are rare by any measure. It's a heckuva lot more dangerous to be a convenience store clerk! Most bad guys would rather give up than take the weight for shooting a LEO. But if you do run into this type, they're surely "all in" for a fight to the death. That's not the response you'll get from the average mugger, who would not be expecting a rapid and lethal response from Mr. or Mrs. Joe Blow.

The article makes sense to me, in that these cop-killer types will shoot first, fire for effect, and basically show no regard for anyone or anything else. But I'm not really able to prepare adequately for that kind of attack - except by staying home! I'd rather focus on the 98% of criminal encounters where the bad guy turns and runs at the sight of a weapon.

I'd be scared of armed civilians too, if I were a mugger! At least cops have to follow rules; civilians are predictably unpredictable.

 

[fd15k]

Note that the article is more than five years old. I think the "Gangstas Tac Tips from the FBI" document been discussed here several times already.

One thing about cop shooters is that they're unusual; such shootings are rare by any measure. It's a heckuva lot more dangerous to be a convenience store clerk! Most bad guys would rather give up than take the weight for shooting a LEO. But if you do run into this type, they're surely "all in" for a fight to the death. That's not the response you'll get from the average mugger, who would not be expecting a rapid and lethal response from Mr. or Mrs. Joe Blow.

The article makes sense to me, in that these cop-killer types will shoot first, fire for effect, and basically show no regard for anyone or anything else. But I'm not really able to prepare adequately for that kind of attack - except by staying home! I'd rather focus on the 98% of criminal encounters where the bad guy turns and runs at the sight of a weapon.

I'd be scared of armed civilians too, if I were a mugger! At least cops have to follow rules; civilians are predictably unpredictable.

An average LEO has several tactical advantages helpful in dealing with such attacks. First of all, they always wear body armor. Sure body armor is not perfect, and stopped hits may cause a lot of damage including possible incapacitation, yet it's an advantage. Second factor is that most of the time they utilize open, easily accessible holsters. Quality of holsters and weapon systems may vary from department to department, but many have pretty good equipment. Finally, LEOs rarely operate alone. All of these are things that most of the regular citizens don't have in their arsenal. Only training deficiencies prevent LEOs from using their tactical advantages over street thugs.

 

[gunfreak]

I find most of the cops I know aren't gun guys. They don't reload they don't know types of guns when they see it on the street and they collect guns. Then there are a few who run there mouth and know it all.

 

[bnz43]

got to hold your gat sideways, you know what im sayin!

 

[Swedish K]

I recall an article from Massad Ayoob several years ago talking about a cop and a bad guy getting in a shootout in an interior apartment building hallway in Detroit or somewhere in that part of the country - they were less than 20' apart in a hallway about 10' wide - both the officer and the bad guy were shooting 9mms with 15 round mags - they both emptied 2 mags shooting at each other and neither one hit the other.
Forward to about 5 years ago when I was shooting PPC matches monthly - the local swat team shows up for the match - all but 2 of the guys were in the bottom of the pack - not a very good showing for guys who are supposed to be at the top of their game.

 

[sandman1212]

I know a crap ton of LEO. Only some of them can shoot and even less know much about firearms, even their carry piece. I have on occasion, asked what a particular LEO was carrying and they had no idea...one would think that they would at least know the tools that they work with.

 

[Grunwald]

I recall an article from Massad Ayoob several years ago talking about a cop and a bad guy getting in a shootout in an interior apartment building hallway in Detroit or somewhere in that part of the country - they were less than 20' apart in a hallway about 10' wide - both the officer and the bad guy were shooting 9mms with 15 round mags - they both emptied 2 mags shooting at each other and neither one hit the other.
Forward to about 5 years ago when I was shooting PPC matches monthly - the local swat team shows up for the match - all but 2 of the guys were in the bottom of the pack - not a very good showing for guys who are supposed to be at the top of their game.

Interestingly enough they seem to hit their target just fine if it's an unarmed civilian.

 

[wichaka]

Sadly, but the almighty dollar runs the training schedule. With most LE dept.'s lacking in funds, so goes the training down the toilet with it.
Most LEO's don't shoot much on their own. So if the dept. isn't supplying the training, there doesn't seem to be much urgency in keeping sharp.

In my 6 person dept., we are on the range 1-2 times a month, either qualifying or just running drills. We burn thru 6-8k rounds of rifle, and about that in pistol ammo a year. Not much for an average reloader/shooter...but way above average for any P.D. in the country.

 

[fd15k]

I recall an article from Massad Ayoob several years ago talking about a cop and a bad guy getting in a shootout in an interior apartment building hallway in Detroit or somewhere in that part of the country - they were less than 20' apart in a hallway about 10' wide - both the officer and the bad guy were shooting 9mms with 15 round mags - they both emptied 2 mags shooting at each other and neither one hit the other.
Forward to about 5 years ago when I was shooting PPC matches monthly - the local swat team shows up for the match - all but 2 of the guys were in the bottom of the pack - not a very good showing for guys who are supposed to be at the top of their game.

SWAT teams are all different. Some SWAT sniper guy from one SoCal department was telling me they don't go to SWAT competitions normally because bigger departments run the game all the time - assault of high raises, airplanes are some of the scenarios that are presented, and they got no high raises or airports at their place And in nationals Department of Energy runs the show - those dudes are over funded and bored, all they do is train.

 

[Botte Hork]

Pardon my ignorance, but for what does the department of Energy need a highly trained police force? Can't they cooperate with local law enforcement authorities in the case they need armed backup or support?

Perhaps I am not fully seeing all their responsibilities, so please educate where needed.

 

[fd15k]

Pardon my ignorance, but for what does the department of Energy need a highly trained police force? Can't they cooperate with local law enforcement authorities in the case they need armed backup or support?

Perhaps I am not fully seeing all their responsibilities, so please educate where needed.

They are responsible for the security of nuclear laboratories, nuclear power plants, a number of other energy related objects.

<broken link removed>

also this :

In the United States, all nuclear weapons deployed by the United States Department of Defense (DoD) are actually on loan to DoD from the DOE/NNSA,[5] which has federal responsibility for the design, testing and production of all nuclear weapons. NNSA in turn uses contractors to carry out its responsibilities at the following government owned sites:

Design of the nuclear components of the weapon: Los Alamos National Laboratory and Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory
Engineering of the weapon systems: Sandia National Laboratories
Manufacturing of key components: Los Alamos National Laboratory, the Kansas City Plant, and Y-12 National Security Complex
Testing: Nevada Test Site
Final weapon/warhead assembling/dismantling: Pantex

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Department_of_Energy#Responsibility_for_nuclear_weapons

 

[Botte Hork]

Ah, thank you, that does make sense. I thought they just took care of the regular power plants, but the less common responsibilities definitely require some additional safety efforts.

 

[netcarrier]

Hi All
But when I was LEO, are dept. Shot monthly. But I worked UnderCover My partner and I shot once a week. But 4 plus times a year the range had speical shoots. So My partner and I shot the PPC and shot 98% with a 2.5" S&W 66-1.
So not all LEO can't shoot. Now that said do most BadGuys Shot that much, I do not think so.
Tony Portland, Oregon Area

 

[badclam]

What is really concerning to me is the shoot first mentality of the bad guys. Whether you are a LEO or an experienced citizen that carries, you are going to have a hesitation before pulling and pointing a gun at someone because of fears of making a mistake. Law abiding people, LEO and citizens, know there are consequences for pointing a gun at someone. That leads to a decision making process that takes time, even if only a second. If you are up against a person who has no fear of the consequences of their actions, they are going to just draw and shoot without the delay of thought. Your only hope is to spot the problem before they draw, and prepare, or hope they miss with their first shot so you get off a well placed shot.

 

[Riot]

What is really concerning to me is the shoot first mentality of the bad guys. Whether you are a LEO or an experienced citizen that carries, you are going to have a hesitation before pulling and pointing a gun at someone because of fears of making a mistake. Law abiding people, LEO and citizens, know there are consequences for pointing a gun at someone. That leads to a decision making process that takes time, even if only a second. If you are up against a person who has no fear of the consequences of their actions, they are going to just draw and shoot without the delay of thought. Your only hope is to spot the problem before they draw, and prepare, or hope they miss with their first shot so you get off a well placed shot.

I was just going to post this very same summary.

The fact of the matter is- is that we are all afraid of being sued...except for the bad guys. One of my coworkers said it best when he stated "you can't get grape juice from a raisen." Most of these thugs have no concept or remorse for collateral damage or injurying someone. they only care about what they are doing at the time (i.e. trying to get away, trying to steal your money, trying to get the next high, etc.). Thugs have almost no concept of the fundamentals of marksmanship...however, they are very proficient in instinctive shooting. Although this method is never accurate at any distance past about 20 feet, it is deadly at close range. Having said that, most shooting confrontations are within 7 feet...therefore we should probably be practicing more at the close stuff than the distance stuff with pistols.

 

[chemist]

An average LEO has several tactical advantages helpful in dealing with such attacks. First of all, they always wear body armor. Sure body armor is not perfect, and stopped hits may cause a lot of damage including possible incapacitation, yet it's an advantage. Second factor is that most of the time they utilize open, easily accessible holsters. Quality of holsters and weapon systems may vary from department to department, but many have pretty good equipment. Finally, LEOs rarely operate alone. All of these are things that most of the regular citizens don't have in their arsenal. Only training deficiencies prevent LEOs from using their tactical advantages over street thugs.

Their big disadvantage is that cops don't lie in wait to ambush people, they only respond to crimes. The guy who decides to shoot first has the edge.

 

[billstaf]

While it is true that many LEOs aren't all that well versed in firearms or combat shooting, the same is true for the gangsta types. I have never seen anybody that might fit the gang banger or bad guy profile at any range or shooting site that appears to be actually practicing. Almost everybody I see at the ranges is a civilian gun guy (lots of reloaders), or off-duty LEO types. Everybody friendly, knowledgeable, and ready to talk about guns or ammo.

Almost every surveillance video I've ever seen showing bad guys shooting looks like a Keystone Kops comedy with the bad guy dancing around, shooting one-handed, rapid shooting without any idea of a decent front sight picture, or shooting sideways (hollywood style). As bad as these guys are, it is a wonder that are able to hit anybody at all. I would suppose that most gang style shootings are simply murder against unarmed people and not actual gun-fight combat. Additionally, I have never heard of any bad guy that could (or would) actually disassemble and clean their weapon.

If it came down to a stand-up gunfight between bangers and the cops, my money is on the cops winning. The bad guys just suck at gun handling too much.

 

[fd15k]

I have never seen anybody that might fit the gang banger or bad guy profile at any range or shooting site that appears to be actually practicing.

I was told by a former LAPD cop (30 years on the force) that a lot of "gangsters" actually practice at a public range down in LA county, and that included some of those types involved in high-profile shootouts. Go figure...