AR15 reloading .223

[Koda]

primary question, without a bolt to lift what else do you use to feel for pressure signs when ladder testing? I know to look for primers and extractor marks but bolt lift has always been the most obvious to me.

Secondary question, is more general to all platforms but is a safe handload for one rifle ok to fire in other rifles and platforms?

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[Cerberus Group]

What is your velocity goal and why...needs to be answered first.

The second question...yes, it's ok but depends again on velocity etc.

 

[Koda]

What is your velocity goal and why...needs to be answered first.

The second question...yes, it's ok but depends again on velocity etc.

just a reasonable velocity for a deer hunting round. The bullet needs to expand at distances reasonable for .223, IMO for a deer size target in .223 thats about 200yds, some people will say 300yds but Id call that max for this caliber. Right now Im estimating about 3000 fps with a 55gr bullet (at the muzzle).

 

[Member 34319]

If you are pushing bullets into the throat, you might not be able to get them to fit into the magazine, or another rifles chamber. Might want to go with something that is a normal OAL so as to fit mags and all other rifles.

Pressure, or high pressures in ARs can be felt through the cycling of the action. As well as seen through ejection. If your gun recoils a certain way with normal ammo, then all of a sudden feels sharper, you might be getting hotter. Changes in ejection pattern can be noticed too. Dinged up brass is a show too, especially if your gun didn't before.

 

[Koda]

If you are pushing bullets into the throat, you might not be able to get them to fit into the magazine, or another rifles chamber. Might want to go with something that is a normal OAL so as to fit mags and all other rifles.

Pressure, or high pressures in ARs can be felt through the cycling of the action. As well as seen through ejection. If your gun recoils a certain way with normal ammo, then all of a sudden feels sharper, you might be getting hotter. Changes in ejection pattern can be noticed too. Dinged up brass is a show too, especially if your gun didn't before.

I wont be pushing into the throat, everything will be fit to mag length. I will have to start noticing "feel" of the cycling of the action as well as ejection patterns. It just seems like cycling "feel" is wayyyy more subjective than a heavy bolt lift.

 

[osprey]

Flattened primers and ejector marks coupled with velocity over published data tells a tale. A chrono is the best tool for me when playing on the upper end. You should be able to get 3000fps easily with no signs of pressure with a 55 grain bullet. That is if you can find a suitable powder. I can get 3000 with a 60gr bullet out of a 16", but I am up near max. I think I decided max was about 3050 and backed off a bit to stay in a good node

 

[Member 34319]

I wont be pushing into the throat, everything will be fit to mag length. I will have to start noticing "feel" of the cycling of the action as well as ejection patterns. It just seems like cycling "feel" is wayyyy more subjective than a heavy bolt lift.

If you shoot your AR a lot, you can tell the difference between loads. Especially hot loads. If you don't shoot it a lot, it might be something that goes unnoticed. It's not exactly the recoil you are feeling for though, it's the bolt carrier and buffer speed recoil that is the difference. Hot load, more gas, faster cycle.

I loaded up a handful of 45 grain varmint loads up to 3400 fps, those things screamed, but the gun cycled way faster shooting them. I ended up going to an H3 when shooting them to slow things down. Banged up the brass good too.

 

[Koda]

Flattened primers and ejector marks coupled with velocity over published data tells a tale. A chrono is the best tool for me when playing on the upper end. You should be able to get 3000fps easily with no signs of pressure with a 55 grain bullet. That is if you can find a suitable powder. I can get 3000 with a 60gr bullet out of a 16", but I am up near max. I think I decided max was about 3050 and backed off a bit to stay in a good node

I have a chrono and plan to use it, but good tip on using the data to compare to load data limits. My barrel is 18inches so I should be able to come up with something safe maybe even get 3100 or so but just want a safe load. There is a 60gr bullet im looking at too, Id like to go heavier but with the magazine issue it pretty much limits the heavier choices in the AR even with a 7 twist barrel.

 

[Koda]

If you shoot your AR a lot, you can tell the difference between loads. Especially hot loads. If you don't shoot it a lot, it might be something that goes unnoticed. It's not exactly the recoil you are feeling for though, it's the bolt carrier and buffer speed recoil that is the difference. Hot load, more gas, faster cycle.

I loaded up a handful of 45 grain varmint loads up to 3400 fps, those things screamed, but the gun cycled way faster shooting them. I ended up going to an H3 when shooting them to slow things down. Banged up the brass good too.

I dont shoot this a lot, actually hardly at all. Half the motivation to make a hunting load for it to take it with me on walks with my dog for cougar protection and a backup deer rifle in season. The tips on buffer speed is good. I'll put some factory rounds thru it before I begin any ladder test.

 

[Cerberus Group]

What powder are you using?

Loading 223 or 5.56?

 

[Koda]

What powder are you using?

Loading 223 or 5.56?

.223, the only powder I have is Accurate 2520.

 

[TTSX]

I've been using load data smack dab in the middle of start/max with good results. Granted, I'm making range ammo so I only care for safe function. When it comes to ARs it seems like barrel length is everything

 

[DizzyJ]

primary question, without a bolt to lift what else do you use to feel for pressure signs when ladder testing? I know to look for primers and extractor marks but bolt lift has always been the most obvious to me.

Secondary question, is more general to all platforms but is a safe handload for one rifle ok to fire in other rifles and platforms?

1) I usually look at primer condition and the case rim. Flattened primers are generally a good indication your pressure is close to or at the upper limits. Additionally, if there are ejector marks on the face of the headstamp that means pressure was so high it caused material to flow back and extrude into the bolt face. This is WAY over pressure.

Ejection pattern can also tell you when pressure is Increasing. If your brass is landing in a neat little pile at the 3-o'clock to 4-o'clock position then you're probably pretty safe. When the brass starts bouncing off the brass deflector it's probably being ejected at a higher velocity. Your brass will often be thrown out in front of the gun into the 1-o'clock or 2-o'clock position. This doesn't necessarily mean it's over pressure, but it means the pressure has increased. Time to watch closely.

The rim condition of the case can also tell you if you're getting into the high pressure range. If the rim looks like it's being torn off or distorted, it usually means the bolt is trying to rip the case out of the chamber while the chamber pressures are still high enough to hold the case up against the chamber walls.

While any of these might give false readings by themselves, together these things generally give a pretty good picture of what's going on pressure wise.

Velocity:
You really should have a chronograph of some sort. If your velocities are greater than what the manual states while using the same components and barrel length, it's more than likely being caused by higher pressures than what were considered to be safe by the people who create the content for a living using pressure gages and other intricate expensive measuring equipment.

Nothing is free. If you've got higher velocities, it's because you've created higher pressure.

2) No. Different firearms will have differences in chamber cut and lead to the lands. My Savage rifles seem to create more velocity with the same loads than other rifle manufacturers. I had a sweet load that printed 3/8" groups @ 100yds. These loads were only midrange in the load data. However some of the primers fell out of brand new Lapua brass upon extraction. When running the loads over a chrono, the velocities showed over 2,800 FPS with a 175gr Sierra MatchKing. I was bummed that I had to start over looking for a good accurate load, but glad I didn't try to go higher upon initial testing.

Hope this helps.
Dizzyj

 

[Koda]

Lots of good advice, taking notes... will go slow and not chasing some high end velocity im just hoping for some decent accuracy when seated to magazine length.

 

[Koda]

2) No. Different firearms will have differences in chamber cut and lead to the lands. My Savage rifles seem to create more velocity with the same loads than other rifle manufacturers.

How do all the different rifle manufacturers account for all the different factory ammo loads, Likewise the same for factory ammo manufacturers.... especially boutique ammo companies like Doubletap which produces "the hardest hitting" hunting loads you can buy?

 

[Koda]

adding this link for reference to this discussion. There is a good cutaway view of inside cases but whats not clear is if the photo represents seating depths appropriate to magazine lengths, but the photo does make me wonder if many reloaders, including experienced reloaders consider much of the effect of how far the projectile protrudes into the case?

22 Nosler Overview: Cartridge, Ballistics, AR-15 Conversion – Ultimate Reloader

ultimatereloader.com

 

[DizzyJ]

How do all the different rifle manufacturers account for all the different factory ammo loads, Likewise the same for factory ammo manufacturers.... especially boutique ammo companies like Doubletap which produces "the hardest hitting" hunting loads you can buy?

I imagine the big ammo companies have to keep the loads well below maximum.

The rifle manufacturers try to stay within tolerances, however the tolerances have a range.

 

[deadeye]

adding this link for reference to this discussion. There is a good cutaway view of inside cases but whats not clear is if the photo represents seating depths appropriate to magazine lengths, but the photo does make me wonder if many reloaders, including experienced reloaders consider much of the effect of how far the projectile protrudes into the case?
View attachment 1118998

22 Nosler Overview: Cartridge, Ballistics, AR-15 Conversion – Ultimate Reloader

ultimatereloader.com

Most reloaders know if you have a max length (OAL) of round then a heavier bullet will be further into the case. This will result in a smaller charge as the volume of the case has changed and pressures can go over if not reduced. For your purposes of varmint control and maybe deer You may want to look at a ballistic tip type projectile to help in the terminal damage. I hunted deer and shot coyotes for years with an AR but it had a 20" barrel 1-9 twist and I used 69g hollow points from Federal (Gold medal match) before I started reloading. Now I just use 55g ballistic tips both in the AR and my 243 and they both perform great. Of course, the 243 is just under 4,000fps and a deer drops where it's standing.......

 

[P7M13]

Recoil, like those posts before have stated, for symptoms beyond primer flattening and piercing, you can look to the cycling of the action, the ejection, and you will feel a difference. If you feel the BCG bottoming out hard, that's a pretty solid clue.
Now, on your choice of powders:
AA 2520 -- you could load heavy bullets with that, meaning I would look at 62gr to 77 gr bullets.
If you're in the Beaverton area, I have some H322, 2230 or 10x you can try.

 

[Koda]

Most reloaders know if you have a max length (OAL) of round then a heavier bullet will be further into the case. This will result in a smaller charge as the volume of the case has changed and pressures can go over if not reduced. For your purposes of varmint control and maybe deer You may want to look at a ballistic tip type projectile to help in the terminal damage. I hunted deer and shot coyotes for years with an AR but it had a 20" barrel 1-9 twist and I used 69g hollow points from Federal (Gold medal match) before I started reloading. Now I just use 55g ballistic tips both in the AR and my 243 and they both perform great. Of course, the 243 is just under 4,000fps and a deer drops where it's standing.......

True, but Im just wondering if many reloaders are aware of the argument that further in the case is less ideal, like discussed above. Or... maybe its not significant enough to worry about. I dont know, but im not experienced. Id like to use a 55g TTSX, or a 60g Hammer Hunter (really cant decide between them) they are virtually the same length and will protrude into the case a bit more than discussed above but not super deep IMO. I think they will work. A compromise is a 50g alternatives of both would be ideal and probably fine but I just wanted to push a heavier bullet if I can.