americans-under-30-have-rapidly-turned-against-gun-control-laws-poll-finds

[Soli]

Work ethic is the most important thing adults pass on to kids. Our son summarized it best, this is in his bones, it's the lens he looks at the world through: "No one owes me anything."

We didn't lecture that into him, tho we're not shy saying it in various ways. Convinced it's simply the water he swam in all his young life, it's how we have always looked at life.

 

[CLT65]

m gonna take a stab and say your parents were a depression era kids? People raised by depression era parents, for the most part I'd say, get a unique up-bringing. I never went hungry, wet or cold. I never got "Levi's" or Converse shoes, got K-Mart. Didn't ride a Schwinn Stingray, had a Murray.

It's interesting how major events can effect the people experiencing them for generations. My parents were both born during WWII, but my grandparents lived through the depression. My folks might as well have, the way they've always lived.

Growing up, I just thought that was normal. We never went without, but we went through some very tough times. They nearly starved out on the farm in the '70s, borrowing money to buy cows and feed, then losing it when the market went bust and they had to sell the animals at a loss. In the '80 they started dairying, and did better financially. I wouldn't wish that on anyone. I milked cows, fed cows, tossed hay bales, scraped manure, baled hay, ran equipment, and even logged trees for years before I was an adult.

My apologies to any dairy farmers here, but if never see another cow as long as I live, I'll be fine. We all worked hard, and rarely had anything nice. New car? What's that? I my world a brand new car was the domain of the wealthy. Normal people didn't have that kind of money to throw around.

Penny pinching and financial worries have been such a part of my life, my whole life, that it's hard to change. Even if a million dollars fell out of the sky, I don't think I could bring myself to buy a new car or other extravagance like that.

 

[FourTeeFive]

I am of the opinion that if the vendor doesn't want that form of payment, they shouldn't accept it. The fees are what they are because the sellers accept them.

Lately some places seem annoyed if you want to use cash. I'm fine with the cards if they are. Plus I get points which is great.

 

[Hueco]

I am of the opinion that if the vendor doesn't want that form of payment, they shouldn't accept it. The fees are what they are because the sellers accept them.

Incorrect. The fees are what the merchants dictate. There isn't competition in this space and whether or not the merchant service is in the marketplace or not is dependent on consumer demand. The business is stuck in the middle.

Now, if the merchant fee were paid by the consumer directly, then consumers would be aware and would shop around accordingly. But most people have no idea that their debit charge costs the business money...and their credit charge even more.

So, you have a system whereby the consumers demand the use of their cards as payment otherwise they'll shop elsewhere...so the business is forced to use a merchant service or risk losing business. That's an artificial market force - one where the guy that loses is the small business who really does feel the difference between a cash payment and a 2% loss off the top.

I'm all for a cashless system - but we shouldn't be moving that direction by allowing the elite class to skim off the top at every level. At minimum, a business using a Chase merchant service should be charged 0.00 when people pay with Chase cards...for the bank, it's moving money around that is already in their portfolio...but why would they do that when they know they can skim off the top?

 

[Dinglenutz]

Incorrect. The fees are what the merchants dictate. There isn't competition in this space and whether or not the merchant service is in the marketplace or not is dependent on consumer demand. The business is stuck in the middle.

They are free to opt out.

 

[Hueco]

They are free to opt out.

Except they're not. The rest of my previous post explains why. If you're going to piecemeal my posts and not engage with them in their entirety, then I think we're done here. Happy to agree to disagree.

 

[Dinglenutz]

Except they're not.

No private business is required to accept credit cards dude. It's a business decision the owner can make. The "or else people will go elsewhere" is the reason they choose to accept cards.

 

[Soli]

No private business is required to accept credit cards dude. It's a business decision the owner can make. The "or else people will go elsewhere" is the reason they choose to accept cards.

You're right.

And Hueco is right.

(Having worked w/ the industry for years in a past life.)

The nut IMO is that the cc companies use the legal system to quash competition by restricting the flow of information at the least and in some places the ability to openly pass on the cost at all. Hence most people are ignorant; they make decisions without knowledge. Where that's just because people are dumb, fine, it's still a free market. But where a system is used to actually prevent info from getting out, that's a manipulated market.

Anyway I think that's at least part of what Hueco is getting at. It's not a free market; payment processors stack the system(s) in their favor with anti-competitive antics.

 

[Dinglenutz]

The nut IMO is that the cc companies use the legal system to quash competition by restricting the flow of information at the least and in some places the ability to openly pass on the cost at all. Hence most people are ignorant; they make decisions without knowledge.

It's not illegal to let people know the use of payment cards costs the seller a fee; it's generally against the seller agreement to pass the fee on directly. The first is a matter of free speech, the second a matter of business contract. The current crop of payment facilitators is using techniques that are starting to look pretty ancient now, and are setting themselves up to be disrupted. Nothing new about that - ask taxis how that works, or Sears Roebuck and Co. or any number of other examples.

When they started actively lobbying to interfere with alternative payment schemes they did cross a line but so far they've not really stopped anything and I doubt they will.

People under 30 are generally a little ignorant, but that's (1) nothing new and (2) not always a function of age.

 

[Alexx1401]

Incorrect. The fees are what the merchants dictate. There isn't competition in this space and whether or not the merchant service is in the marketplace or not is dependent on consumer demand. The business is stuck in the middle.

Now, if the merchant fee were paid by the consumer directly, then consumers would be aware and would shop around accordingly. But most people have no idea that their debit charge costs the business money...and their credit charge even more.

So, you have a system whereby the consumers demand the use of their cards as payment otherwise they'll shop elsewhere...so the business is forced to use a merchant service or risk losing business. That's an artificial market force - one where the guy that loses is the small business who really does feel the difference between a cash payment and a 2% loss off the top.

I'm all for a cashless system - but we shouldn't be moving that direction by allowing the elite class to skim off the top at every level. At minimum, a business using a Chase merchant service should be charged 0.00 when people pay with Chase cards...for the bank, it's moving money around that is already in their portfolio...but why would they do that when they know they can skim off the top?

Even though it is "supposedly" against the Terms of Service there has long been a lot of business that let the customer choose. If they want to use plastic they pay the cost. Many over the years have complained about it. I just shrug and say if you don't like it pay cash. Someone has to pay. For business's that roll the cost in I use a CC any more like a checking account. I get paid to do it and it's just safe and easy. Places that still offer the cost back to me for using cash I will pay cash.

 

[titsonritz]

"Who" are those guys.

Beat me too it. lol.

 

[Soli]

It's working its way through the courts now, but in at least a few states it is illegal to charge a surcharge for cc use. IE, just state and pass the cost on to the customer. So it's not simply contractual. In a number of other states (maybe fed... don't recall) the amount of any surcharge is limited by law to a "reasonable" specific amount to (supposedly) cover the cost. Along with a slew of other regs about itemizing, posting, and tracking the amount you can charge a customer.

Compare it to anything else. A store can say "bring in a donation of food, 15% off today", or "jump the line, that'll be a $20 charge" or just "the price is up 100% today!" (boolets... ) Just a market being a market. But not cc/debit. There are all these "consumer protections" in place to keep plastic usage "fair". And opaque.

So I still say it's anti-competitive antics. Lots of which use the legal system to enforce.

 

[Alexx1401]

It's working its way through the courts now, but in at least a few states it is illegal to charge a surcharge for cc use. IE, just state and pass the cost on to the customer. So it's not simply contractual. In a number of other states (maybe fed... don't recall) the amount of any surcharge is limited by law to a "reasonable" specific amount to (supposedly) cover the cost. Along with a slew of other regs about itemizing, posting, and tracking the amount you can charge a customer.

Compare it to anything else. A store can say "bring in a donation of food, 15% off today", or "jump the line, that'll be a $20 charge" or just "the price is up 100% today!" (boolets... ) Just a market being a market. But not cc/debit. There are all these "consumer protections" in place to keep plastic usage "fair". And opaque.

So I still say it's anti-competitive antics. Lots of which use the legal system to enforce.

How do places on line that charge to use a card do it in those States? Just say no sales there?

 

[Soli]

How do places on line that charge to use a card do it in those States? Just say no sales there?

I don't know.

I do know I just get probably too uptight and righteous on the subject after spending over a decade going around with payment processors about their costs/policies and getting the jist that "Hey... this is much more complex than it should be... and there's ton of rules around something pretty damn simple... and it's costing a lot that we can't recover!" I'll shut up.

 

[Patriot1775]

Won't hold my breath due to the lack of intelligence, humility and testosterone in beta-males these days.

 

[Mikej]

Won't hold my breath due to the lack of intelligence, humility and testosterone in beta-males these days.

If we're talking city dwelling, gen Z males I'm seeing a distinct lack of testosterones in many cases. My opinion.

 

[Mikej]

My folks never did accumulate money/assets. Dad was simply a worker, and never could grasp the idea of doing other things, extra things, to accumulate more for retirement. His extra $$ came from working overtime, which there was a lot of... up at 5, back at 5, dinner at 5. They never went on cruises, but dad played a lot of golf, went dancing at the Elks, and we had month long vacations, renting a cottage at Newport Beach, 2 blocks on the bay/channel side of Balboa Blvd. We all thought it was pretty idylic.

The wife and I enjoyed some of our investments by taking cruises. A total of 5 times. The last time was the Inland Passageway, 3 days after I got out of the hospital from a burst appendix. It wasn't very enjoyable. Now that Lou has dementia, that will be the last such activity.

I'm wondering if we've had this conversation before? Newport Peninsula. Balboa and Newport piers. The Pavilion fishing boat with live bait tanks rentals. 15th and Balboa blvd is where we rented a small apartment on the beach. I can still smell the charbroiled burgers and fries from "The Stuffed Surfer" on the other side of 15th from the rentals. Would have been mid '60s

 

[bbbass]

I'm wondering if we've had this conversation before? Newport Peninsula. Balboa and Newport piers. The Pavilion fishing boat with live bait tanks rentals. 15th and Balboa blvd is where we rented a small apartment on the beach. I can still smell the charbroiled burgers and fries from "The Stuffed Surfer" on the other side of 15th from the rentals. Would have been mid '60s

Yep, we've talked about it. Fond memories from our yute.

That is about the area where we rented. But we were nearer the channel. I remember it being a fairly long walk down to the Newport pier. What the heck was the grocery store that was on that end of town... Market Basket?

We only rented an apt right on the beach one time. It wasn't as great as I thought it would be. The cottage near the channel was pretty cozy and I liked being able to paddle my brother's humongously long surfboard in the channel, going around all the boats in their slips. That was before they started making shorter boards. In those days everybody thought they were Duke Kamanawannalaya.

 

[bbbass]

If we're talking city dwelling, gen Z males I'm seeing a distinct lack of testosterones in many cases. My opinion.

My neighbor in his 20s is like that. His wife has more testosterone than he appears to have. He defers to her on everything.

It was particularly noticeable when he sported a manbun. No callouses. They are "gamers" that stay inside. Soft but physically strong. When the lawn does get mowed, it's the wife that does it. But now that he is a plumber's apprentice, I wonder if he will toughen up.

Nice guy tho. Will help me when I need anything.

 

[Mikej]

My neighbor in his 20s is like that. His wife has more testosterone than he appears to have. He defers to her on everything.

It was particularly noticeable when he sported a manbun. No callouses. They are "gamers" that stay inside. Soft but physically strong. When the lawn does get mowed, it's the wife that does it. But now that he is a plumber's apprentice, I wonder if he will toughen up.

Now that's exactly what I'm talkin' about!

That is about the area where we rented. But we were nearer the channel. I remember it being a fairly long walk down to the Newport pier. What the heck was the grocery store that was on that end of town... Market Basket?

We only rented an apt right on the beach one time. It wasn't as great as I thought it would be. The cottage near the channel was pretty cozy and I liked being able to paddle my brother's humongously long surfboard in the channel, going around all the boats in their slips. That was before they started making shorter boards. In those days everybody thought they were Duke Kamanawannalaya.

15th street deadened at the beach and the bay. There was a small public doc on the bay. I didn't have a surf board but dad would rent me one of those inflatable, air mattress type things. I would take that in the surf, and paddle it around in the bay too. Around the boats that were anchored out there. Amazing isn't it? The folks trusted me enough to just go out on my own and "Play"? Imagine what it would be like down there now?