A little slice of history...so to speak...

[Flopsweat]

...

All that are left are the millions of illegal handguns...

...

There was a saying in the US - it's largely fallen out of fashion but you still hear it occasionally - that if you ban guns only criminals will have them. I would have to think that many holders of these illegal handguns are not exactly career criminals, just ordinary citizens unwilling to wear the yoke.

 

[tac]

There was a saying in the US - it's largely fallen out of fashion but you still hear it occasionally - that if you ban guns only criminals will have them. I would have to think that many holders of these illegal handguns are not exactly career criminals, just ordinary citizens unwilling to wear the yoke.

The evidence does not support your surmise. Most people here ARE law-abiding, and the chance of being caught in possession of an illegal firearm, however slight it might seem, puts the law-abiding off trying it.

This nation of 66 million people has just 2 million shooters, who pay for the privilege of having their sport legally. When I was dealing with firearms from a forensic POV I was never once involved in a situation where an otherwise honest citizen produced a gun out of nowhere and applied it as needed. Every single one of the cases in which I was involved, and that would be literally hundreds, involved criminals, mostly, it has to be noted, non-white.

Here in the yUK illegal possession of a firearm or even ammunition is what is called an absolute offence - there is no possible plea - you either have in in your possession or you don't. The penalties can be life-changing - 5 to 10 for illegal possession is usual.

The other thing you have to bear in mind is that Mr or Mrs Ordinary citizen is just NOT gun-minded - not just a little bit, but not in the least. Guns are just NOT part of the everyday landscape here unless you are a legal owner, or a crook.

 

[Flopsweat]

The evidence does not support your surmise. Most people here ARE law-abiding, and the chance of being caught in possession of an illegal firearm, however slight it might seem, puts the law-abiding off trying it.

This nation of 66 million people has just 2 million shooters, who pay for the privilege of having their sport legally. When I was dealing with firearms from a forensic POV I was never once involved in a situation where an otherwise honest citizen produced a gun out of nowhere and applied it as needed. Every single one of the cases in which I was involed, and that would be literally hundreds, involved criminals, mostly, it has to be noted, non-white.

Here in the yUK illegal possession of a firearm or even ammunition is what is called an absolute offence - there is no possible plea - you either have in in your possession or you don't. The penalties can be life-changing - 5 to 10 for illegal possession is usual.

The other thing you have to bear in mind is that Mr or Mrs Ordinary citizen is just NOT gun-minded - not just a little bit, but not in the least. Guns are just NOT part of the everyday landscape here unless you are a legal owner, or a crook.

OK. So where are those millions of illegal guns to which you referred earlier?

 

[tac]

They are in the hands of the criminals who use them.

 

[Flopsweat]

They are in the hands of the criminals who use them.

Surely not all of them?

 

[Capn Jack]

Conditioning?
Briton has my condolences, as it's almost
time for them to learn to speak Farsi.

 

[tac]

Surely not all of them?

Who knows? Remember that every LEGAL firearm here in UK has been registered at least three times.

Firstly on arrival in the UK by the importers and HM Customs and Excise.

Second, from the importers to the dealers, who then record it on their official register - open to police scrutiny at any time.

Thirdly, registered to the new owner on his Firearms Certificate (FAC) and OFF the dealer's register. The FAC is issued by the county police authority.

Shotguns up the three shots are held on a shotgun certificate, and over three shots are classed as Section 1 firearms and need to be held on an FAC, like any rifle or handgun, nitro or black, real or replica.

So, by definition, any firearm that does not appear on the register is illegal. Simple fact.

 

[Flopsweat]

Who knows? Remember that every LEGAL firearm here in UK has been registered at least three times.

Firstly on arrival in the UK by the importers and HM Customs and Excise.

Second, from the importers to the dealers, who then record it on their official register - open to police scrutiny at any time.

Thirdly, registered to the new owner on his Firearms Certificate (FAC) and OFF the dealer's register. The FAC is issued by the county police authority.

Shotguns up the three shots are held on a shotgun certificate, and over three shots are classed as Section 1 firearms and need to be held on an FAC, like any rifle or handgun, nitro or black, real or replica.

So, by definition, any firearm that does not appear on the register is illegal. Simple fact.

Sounds like some remarkably paranoid lawmakers got together and decided to write a parody of themselves.

 

[tac]

Well, It took place over a period of some thirty-something years, but began after the cessation of hostilities in 1918 when the British government of the day took a look at what had happened in Russia, where, oddly enough, the British [along with the White Russians] were fighting the Bolsheviks [the Red Russians] in Northern Russia, around a place that's still called Byelarus [Russian for white Russia]. Scared fartless that the five and a half million ex-British servicemen, all trained in the art of dirty war, would take up arms in a revolution of some kind, bearing in mind that the 'land fit for heroes' had never materialised, one of the first things done was to register all legally-held guns. Did you know that up until around 1930 anybody who had a fancy to do so could legally buy a Thompson? After those heady days, it all went to ratsh*t until we are now in the sate we currently 'enjoy'.

 

[nammac]

The real lesson here, guard your Rights, every one of them, with the ferociousness of a rabid dog... For once they slip away, they'll be gone forever and all will become subjects to the elite taskmasters...

 

[tac]

Notwithstanding the generally-held 'wisdom' that people in the yUK cannot defend themselves, of course they can, and do, even to using their attackers' own weapons on them. A few cases recently where 'travellers' have tried to invade property have been met with armed resistance, and the shooters walked. Unlike the 'travellers' whose travelling came to an abrupt end for a a few years.

 

[Capn Jack]

"Travellers." Careful tac, you're slipping into, "Political Correctness."
Oh, but that's right.
Now you have to be ever so careful with the new laws that are in effect in the UK.

 

[DuneHopper]

After WWII we should have kept France and invaded the UK, which in turn Canada and Aus would be ours. These three nations have so negatively effected gun owners in the USA, had we done this, we would not have some of the issues we have today.
I am not a big fan of the UK never have been, we have dumped so much money into these three countries and never seen a dime back. What we get back is them telling us how to run our country, when it was not for us they wouldn't have one. We could have done what Russia did and taken the spoils and then some.... but alas we have what we have.

BTW, I can say what I did, lol our family has a coat of arms in Wales

 

[tac]

Paid back in full, Sir. The last payment was made on 29 December 2006 for the sum of about $83m (£45.5m), the 29th being the last working day of the year. The final payment was actually six years late, the British Government having suspended payments due in the years 1956, 1957, 1964, 1965, 1968 and 1976 because the exchange rates were seen as impractical.

Now, less cr*pping on the UK, and more about guns, if you would be so kind.

 

[tac]

As an aside, Mr Dunehopper, you are making this forum much less fun for me than it really should be, bearing in mind that I'm always talking about guns, and your favourite subject seems to be either taking the p*ss out of me, or the country I live in. If what I have to write sets your hair on fire so much that you need to go public with the hate, you might try putting me on your 'ignore list'. in much the same way as you have been on mine twice already.

That way would be a lot more pleasant all round, IMO, and let those here with less hate continue the discussion without your xenophobia ruining it.

 

[DuneHopper]

As an aside, Mr Dunehopper, you are making this forum much less fun for me than it really should be, bearing in mind that I'm always talking about guns, and your favourite subject seems to be either taking the p*ss out of me, or the country I live in. If what I have to write sets your hair on fire so much that you need to go public with the hate, you might try putting me on your 'ignore list'. in much the same way as you have been on mine twice already.
That way would be a lot more pleasant all round, IMO, and let those here with less hate continue the discussion without your xenophobia ruining it.

I never addressed anything at your personally, not even a little.
I know what the rules are, so far as I knew saying ones displeasure with a country( elsewhere) over how they treat their people
about gun rights and over speak about ours? This is not picking on you. Its factual stuff.
I for one would be happy and fine if other country stop telling us what we need to do was my point.
You love your country, thats awesome. I love mine as well, and all thoughts of my country come first. So tired of having to
apologies to people for saying how much I love my country.
Not sure why you would expect less, from a forum located in the USA, that should support this country at all cost.
Sorry you feel offended, but I never aimed anything at you, and as much as you twisted my words around that never happened.
I will however stand with how I feel, its not hate ( again twisting my words). We are not telling CAN, AU and the UK to stop owning firearms are we? Then saying they need to knock it off, how is that offensive? ( don't answer that it was rhetorical)
But going to step away from this topic, said my piece and I wont get sucked in, having my words twisted. I aimed my comments at a country, you aimed them at me. Big difference, and as said wont get sucked in, have great day !!

In closing America First, is not a bad word..this forum is in America.

 

[Flymph]

The story doesn't get old.
Thanks for sharing it again!

 

[Mike97124]

I spent the last few week in Eugene and Portland. Just two hundred years ago, neither of these two places existed.
.

Actually they did exist and for a long time before that... they were populated by the Original Americans and they didn't call them Eugene or Portland. But there were people here. Just saying...

Mike

 

[CLT65]

Thank you for posting, tac, and the history lesson. Yes, it is a reminder of what can happen here if we're not careful. I hear people say all the time how it "could never happen here". Yes, yes it could. Probably not anytime soon to that degree, but there are plenty of people here who would LOVE to have the prohibitive laws they have there.

Yes, the average guy can own guns and shoot over there, and as you've shown before, it is doable and affordable, but clearly not the way it is here. I for one can't imagine paying what you all do for ammo and components. I think I'd take up golf.

It sounds like they've done a notably effective job of keeping handguns out of the hands of law abiding people. Sounds like a model for the world! Sure, criminals and murderers can still get them, but average working Joe sure can't, won't, and doesn't dare!

As to country (and state) bashing: I've found it helpful to be cautious and direct disapproval towards the laws and leaders who make them, rather than blanket condemn another country (or state). For example, my father hates Oregon, calls it a cesspool socialist paradise and never misses an opportunity to bash it. I'm always feeling offended and defensive. One day I told him that he could bash the nut-jobs in the legislature and the majority wackadoodles in Portland, and I'd agree with him all day long, but a blanket condemnation of the state in general is just going to make me mad. I've lived here my whole life and there is much to love. It's a beautiful state that still has a lot of good people, even if we are outnumbered.

I've read enough of your posts to know that you're not a big fan of UK gun policy, as well as leadership at times, but it's still an incredibly beautiful country with plenty of good people. I would love to visit someday.

 

[Flopsweat]

Thank you for posting, tac, and the history lesson. Yes, it is a reminder of what can happen here if we're not careful. I hear people say all the time how it "could never happen here". Yes, yes it could. Probably not anytime soon to that degree, but there are plenty of people here who would LOVE to have the prohibitive laws they have there.

Yes, the average guy can own guns and shoot over there, and as you've shown before, it is doable and affordable, but clearly not the way it is here. I for one can't imagine paying what you all do for ammo and components. I think I'd take up golf.

It sounds like they've done a notably effective job of keeping handguns out of the hands of law abiding people. Sounds like a model for the world! Sure, criminals and murderers can still get them, but average working Joe sure can't, won't, and doesn't dare!

As to country (and state) bashing: I've found it helpful to be cautious and direct disapproval towards the laws and leaders who make them, rather than blanket condemn another country (or state). For example, my father hates Oregon, calls it a cesspool socialist paradise and never misses an opportunity to bash it. I'm always feeling offended and defensive. One day I told him that he could bash the nut-jobs in the legislature and the majority wackadoodles in Portland, and I'd agree with him all day long, but a blanket condemnation of the state in general is just going to make me mad. I've lived here my whole life and there is much to love. It's a beautiful state that still has a lot of good people, even if we are outnumbered.

I've read enough of your posts to know that you're not a big fan of UK gun policy, as well as leadership at times, but it's still an incredibly beautiful country with plenty of good people. I would love to visit someday.

There are groups trying very hard to make this happen in your state right now as a matter of fact. They've made some notable progress recently in both Oregon and Washington states, and they are trying even harder this year.