9mm vs .40 Smith & Wesson - What happened?

[No_Regerts]

I was working at RSR Wholesale when the .40SW came out. It was quickly nicknamed the "40 Short and Weak". But within a year it had racked up quite a reputation as a "manstopper".
Within a few years, I had a SIG P229, Browning HP, and SW 4006 in .40SW. Within a couple years, I had dumped them all. Good round but I found it very unpleasant to shoot. It had a sharper recoil than my .45's.
I honestly think it's simply that a lot of folks and police officers are realizing that it's better to hit with a 9mm than miss with a 40SW.

I don't get the miss thing. Ive shot with people on this forum who can attest that I shoot as well with a .40 as a 9mm. I shot 12 IDPA matches last year, 6 with .40 and 6 with 9mm using nearly identical guns (G17 and G22). When comparing the 6 matches with each gun head to head, I scored higher with .40 4 times out of 6. I don't think there is any magic that made me faster and more accurate than .40, but I don't think the difference in shootability was significant enough to effect my scores.

Out of a Safariland level 3 holster, my draw and fire of my first round, which has to hit a 6 inch circle at 10 feet, is .96 to 1.12 seconds with either gun. My splits are also identical and have more to do with how I feel than the gun.

So if I can shoot a bigger caliber, why wouldn't I?

The only reason I carry a 9mm is I get free 9mm at work.

 

[User 1234]

When you all stop wasting your time on fad centerfire cartridges you can start carrying 7mm pinfire handguns. Pinfire cartridge - Wikipedia

 

[leadcounsel]

I also shoot the same with 9 or .40. Recoil impulse is different but not remarkably different. Guns are also designed to absorb the .40 differently than the 9. Many guns have slightly heavier slides, springs, different recoil designs, etc.

But that also demonstrates that there is more energy being dumped into a target (Newtons laws of physics).

 

[DB is Here]

Ever shoot .40 from a G23 vs G22? Any less accurate with either?

 

[leadcounsel]

Ever shoot .40 from a G23 vs G22? Any less accurate with either?

I've got Hks, Walthers, Sigs, CZs, Rugers, Kahrs, Smiths, and others. I got this G23 .40 in about 2007, and it's on my hip right now, and it's the gun I've carried the most over any other gun in my collection. I can put all shots in a pie plate at 7 yards without much effort in rapid fire. 13+1 of 165 Federal HSTs.

My nightstand drawer has the bigger brother, G35 .40 with 15+1.

Now, any of those other guns would be fine, 9 or .40. I'm merely saying that I choose to carry the .40 G23 with ample other options. Simple, bombproof reliable, accurate, fast followups, and excellent capacity vs size/weight ratio.

 

[Retired Guy]

I don't get the miss thing. Ive shot with people on this forum who can attest that I shoot as well with a .40 as a 9mm. I shot 12 IDPA matches last year, 6 with .40 and 6 with 9mm using nearly identical guns (G17 and G22). When comparing the 6 matches with each gun head to head, I scored higher with .40 4 times out of 6. I don't think there is any magic that made me faster and more accurate than .40, but I don't think the difference in shootability was significant enough to effect my scores.

Out of a Safariland level 3 holster, my draw and fire of my first round, which has to hit a 6 inch circle at 10 feet, is .96 to 1.12 seconds with either gun. My splits are also identical and have more to do with how I feel than the gun.

So if I can shoot a bigger caliber, why wouldn't I?

The only reason I carry a 9mm is I get free 9mm at work.

My suspicion is that you're more interested in firearms than many of your peers. More knowledgeable and willing to practice on your own time. I've met a few officers who have only the minimum interest in guns and the only shooting they do is their annual qual.

 

[SmitKoWitz]

It's an interesting debatable topic in some respects, and as the title asks: What Happened? Part of what happened as I see it, new firearms being produced have become smaller and lighter. Along with the technology advancements in firearms, and ammunition/bullets, as well as the lower cost of 9 vs 40, the 40 was left behind. There are of course those that still prefer, and enjoy shooting them. Proof of that to me was when I traded in a 40 S&W Shield, along with a Sig P938. As a % of original expense, I was given significantly more for the 40, than the 9mm. Personally, I like the 40 round, it has a different recoil than the 9. In a steel firearm, even a very small one (Kahr MK40), it does not seem to be objectionable to me. The only drawback is the lower round count to a comparable size 9mm. However, that is typically 1-3 rounds; depending on the size of the firearm. The Kahr MK comes with a 5 & 6 round, but you can use the 7 round from the K model in the MK. A compact polymer M&P 9 holds 12, the 40 holds 10. For a while, the market was all about round capacity. Now it seems to be about size. Unfortunately as I stated earlier, the manufacturers are not promoting smaller 40's in polymer as much as the 9. The Mossberg is a good example, as are the Micro 9 series from Kimber and now the Kimber EVO 9 series. Then there is the Springfield 911 series, which is 380 and 9. Market is tailored toward smaller, less felt recoil firearms. It is also due to the influx of first time, female, and older (more frail boned) folks that want an easier to conceal weapon.

 

[No_Regerts]

Just as I suspected. Along with the pussification of America, comes the pussification of guns......and to Euro-trash cartridges no less.

 

[DirectDrive]

It's an interesting debatable topic in some respects, and as the title asks: What Happened? Part of what happened as I see it, new firearms being produced have become smaller and lighter. Along with the technology advancements in firearms, and ammunition/bullets, as well as the lower cost of 9 vs 40, the 40 was left behind. There are of course those that still prefer, and enjoy shooting them. Proof of that to me was when I traded in a 40 S&W Shield, along with a Sig P938. As a % of original expense, I was given significantly more for the 40, than the 9mm. Personally, I like the 40 round, it has a different recoil than the 9. In a steel firearm, even a very small one (Kahr MK40), it does not seem to be objectionable to me. The only drawback is the lower round count to a comparable size 9mm. However, that is typically 1-3 rounds; depending on the size of the firearm. The Kahr MK comes with a 5 & 6 round, but you can use the 7 round from the K model in the MK. A compact polymer M&P 9 holds 12, the 40 holds 10. For a while, the market was all about round capacity. Now it seems to be about size. Unfortunately as I stated earlier, the manufacturers are not promoting smaller 40's in polymer as much as the 9. The Mossberg is a good example, as are the Micro 9 series from Kimber and now the Kimber EVO 9 series. Then there is the Springfield 911 series, which is 380 and 9. Market is tailored toward smaller, less felt recoil firearms. It is also due to the influx of first time, female, and older (more frail boned) folks that want an easier to conceal weapon.

Well stated ^^^
In these gun forum convos, the 9 will always be David and the 40/45 will always be Goliath.

I shoot 9 and 10
I came late to the party and may never own a 40.
If I was a 40 fan in this market, I wouldn't be happy about my future firearms choices.
I'd probably grab whatever I considered to be a Hall-of-Famer in 40 and stash it away while prices are low.
When the police trade-ins dry up and with mfrs. cutting back on newly designed 40's the prices will go up.

 

[surevaliance]

To me even 9x19 is overkill.
If not questionable reliability of rimfire primers, I would switch to .22Lr without any doubts.
I can hit bullseye at 10 yards with my CP-33 rapidly - all day long.
Moreover, my arthritis appreciate almost non-existent recoil and muzzle jump.

 

[DizzyJ]

To me even 9x19 is overkill.
If not questionable reliability of rimfire primers, I would switch to .22Lr without any doubts.
I can hit bullseye at 10 yards with my CP-33 rapidly - all day long; and my arthritis appreciates almost non-existent recoil and muzzle jump.

Until your life depends on you pulling the trigger on another human being.

People don't just usually stand there and let you shoot bullseyes at them.

 

[surevaliance]

Until your life depends on you pulling the trigger on another human being.

People don't just usually stand there and let you shoot bullseyes at them.

I see your point as I've spent two years in the Military and eight years in the LE (both Russian).
Believe me, with .22 I can blow the BG's brains with first shot.
However, I will still have 33 rounds in the magazine...
Would you call it a salt shaker then?

 

[WAYNO]

Oh no Mr. Bill!

I just bought a brand new Sig P226 in .40 . The salesman didn't tell me it's an obsolete cartridge that will be discontinued tomorrow. And he didn't tell me a 9mm is every bit as powerful as a .40. And he didn't tell me the .40 is so snappy it'll rattle the nail polish off your finger nails, and he didn't tell me how expensive it is to shoot. And he didn't tell me my magazine capacity will be only twelve rounds.

So I'll just add it to my other .40's and remain blissfully ignorant.

 

[DirectDrive]

I love the feel of recoil in the morning.
Feels like......Victory !

 

[SmitKoWitz]

To me even 9x19 is overkill.
If not questionable reliability of rimfire primers, I would switch to .22Lr without any doubts.

I often hear people mention rimfire reliability . . my bad experiences point to specific brands, well known brands. Every time I go out and shoot, I always shoot 22LR and often 22WMR. I usually shoot handguns, but have both a semi-auto and revolver in both. I waited quote sometime to buy one of these, but when I saw a great price about a year ago, I picked up the PMR-30 22WMR. If you want to carry a large capacity, this is the piece. I've had virtually zero issues after the first couple mags I loaded. Those malfunctions were improperly loaded magazines. I also do not go to capacity, but just do 25 per mag (after the first couple outings), half a box in each. I've even intermixed 30, 40, 45 and 50 grain in the same magazine, and had zero issues. CCi, Federal, Hornady and Fiocchi ammo has all worked excellent. Those are typically the same brands I would use in my 22LR handguns, without issue. I lean toward Federal for the 22LR, inexpensive and reliable. I would NOT be exaggerating, if I said there might be ONE failure to fire in every 250 rounds, if that often. And then I wonder, is it the ammo, or the firearm? Typically, a second try in a pistol or revolver ignites the round. After three tries I decide it's a dud, and that might be one in 500 - 1000.

I agree about the getting older and wanting something softer. However, that is one of the reasons I prefer metal firearms over polymer. More weight to the firearm, the recoil transfer is not as sharp. Of course, some lighter weight small polymer firearms do an excellent job mitigating felt recoil. I've shot the new Mossberg MC1sc, and it is very soft shooting, and accurate too.

 

[surevaliance]

I often hear people mention rimfire reliability . . my bad experiences point to specific brands, well known brands. Every time I go out and shoot, I always shoot 22LR and often 22WMR. I usually shoot handguns, but have both a semi-auto and revolver in both. I waited quote sometime to buy one of these, but when I saw a great price about a year ago, I picked up the PMR-30 22WMR. If you want to carry a large capacity, this is the piece. I've had virtually zero issues after the first couple mags I loaded. Those malfunctions were improperly loaded magazines. I also do not go to capacity, but just do 25 per mag (after the first couple outings), half a box in each. I've even intermixed 30, 40, 45 and 50 grain in the same magazine, and had zero issues. CCi, Federal, Hornady and Fiocchi ammo has all worked excellent. Those are typically the same brands I would use in my 22LR handguns, without issue. I lean toward Federal for the 22LR, inexpensive and reliable. I would NOT be exaggerating, if I said there might be ONE failure to fire in every 250 rounds, if that often. And then I wonder, is it the ammo, or the firearm? Typically, a second try in a pistol or revolver ignites the round. After three tries I decide it's a dud, and that might be one in 500 - 1000.

I agree about the getting older and wanting something softer. However, that is one of the reasons I prefer metal firearms over polymer. More weight to the firearm, the recoil transfer is not as sharp. Of course, some lighter weight small polymer firearms do an excellent job mitigating felt recoil. I've shot the new Mossberg MC1sc, and it is very soft shooting, and accurate too.

I love my PMR-30 almost as much as I love my CP-33! I only wish that cost of .22WMR was any close to .22Lr
I have an American Speedloaders Nest for PMR-30 and it IS the real game changer!
No more rimlocks, no more tapping.

BTW, I just spoke with American Speedloaders' owner and he said he is working on Nest speedloader for CP-33!!!
He said he is testing it now and it will be on the market in approx. three month.

 

[MrRob96]

Or do the sensible thing and merge the two for the best performance in all regards.

357 Sig. Surely that will never become obsolete.

 

[surevaliance]

Or do the sensible thing and merge the two for the best performance in all regards.

357 Sig. Surely that will never become obsolete.

Wery close!
My dream gun is a full size Glock in 7.62x25 Tokarev - with few of "happy sticks".

 

[deerbandit]

I will be retired 5 years in June. I can tell you that in my former Agency (one of the larger ones in S. Florida) there were newer Officers complaining at that time. Our agency carried .40 or .45 only. The newer people were complaining that the grips were too big for their hands and the guns were too snappy in the wrist. I can tell you that we were getting our fair share of less than stellar applicants because of the pres obamas war on cops. The standards also had to be lowered to fit certain requiting efforts. I will leave it at that. I love my former Agency but was sad to see how it was changing after so many great years because of. Political correctness and to fulfill new hiring requirements. This was the same reason the FBI went to 9 mm because they were hiring many more women who just have smaller hands. That's right from one of their firearms instructors.

 

[SmitKoWitz]

Or maybe an RIA 22TCM . . .personally, I want a Bren Ms 2, with the 11" barrel.