9mm OAL with RMR Bullets

[Mikej]

As long as the rounds are passing the "plunk test".

I'm not suggesting you plunk test every round.

 

[Member 5605]

Um..
The bullet seats on the die from the nose. Your die got bumped. The distance from the bottom of the die where it contacts the meplat of the bullet and the top of the shell holder, should be the same.

Unless your press grew, die adjustment was moved, lock ring moved, these distances should be the same.

I can load the same ammo a year apart and get the same results on my die heads without doing adjustments.

if a PLUNK test fails, your new bullets could have a thicker plating, RMR could be using a new die or an old one that's wore out making a little longer lead unit (or shorter for new).

You're talking about splitting hairs. 1.100 is where I run, loads in everything.

Where is your load data from? I use Hodgdon and theirs shows 1.100".

but.....


If you use the Speer Gold Dot Hollow Point of 1.125", your FMJ round nose will be too long causing the issue you've described.

 

[damon32382]

Um..
The bullet seats on the die from the nose. Your die got bumped. The distance from the bottom of the die where it contacts the meplat of the bullet and the top of the shell holder, should be the same.

Unless your press grew, die adjustment was moved, lock ring moved, these distances should be the same.

I can load the same ammo a year apart and get the same results on my die heads without doing adjustments.

if a PLUNK test fails, your new bullets could have a thicker plating, RMR could be using a new die or an old one that's wore out making a little longer lead unit (or shorter for new).

You're talking about splitting hairs. 1.100 is where I run, loads in everything.

Where is your load data from? I use Hodgdon and theirs shows 1.100".

but.....

View attachment 635391
If you use the Speer Gold Dot Hollow Point of 1.125", your FMJ round nose will be too long causing the issue you've described.

I also use the Hodgdon site for my loading data. But I originally didn't want to run a 1.100 OAL with the plated 115's. I went out to 1.140 and everything was great.
These new FMJ 115's are not nearly as narrow, so I had to drop the OAL to 1.120 to fit them in my barrels. Wish I would have just stuck to the narrower plated ones.
Not sure what pic you are referring to as far as my die "getting bumped"...but it's the second pic I posted that's my actual bullet. The first pic is just one I found on google. Could you explain more what you mean? I only adjusted my dies when I got these new bullets.

 

[Member 5605]

I also use the Hodgdon site for my loading data. But I originally didn't want to run a 1.100 OAL with the plated 115's. I went out to 1.140 and everything was great.
These new FMJ 115's are not nearly as narrow, so I had to drop the OAL to 1.120 to fit them in my barrels. Wish I would have just stuck to the narrower plated ones.
Not sure what pic you are referring to as far as my die "getting bumped"...but it's the second pic I posted that's my actual bullet. The first pic is just one I found on google. Could you explain more what you mean? I only adjusted my dies when I got these new bullets.

Sounds like like a bullet design change than a die getting adjusted between loadings.

I got caught back up on the thread.

 

[gmerkt]

That space under the straightedge in your google photo isn't anything I would worry about.

This hour glass shape is the reason I've gone back to a set of steel dies for 9mm that I sometimes use. There are certain forms of what I call case deformation or distortion that carbide dies can impart to brass cartridge cases. The hourglass is one I don't like. Another deformation that results from some carbide dies is the creation of a ridge at the web of the case. Where the sizing process ends. Some will do it, some won't. I've got lots of die sets. They vary enough that sometimes you need more than one set to deal with different brands of cases. I've got three sets of .38 Super, for example.

I just got a carbide sizing die back from Lee. It's from a .40 S&W set. It will leave a ridge in the web of some brands of cases. I have another Lee carbide sizing die from a 10mm set but it's the same part. It never leaves a ridge. So I sent in the die from the .40 set, complaining about the ridge, asking that they polish the carbide ring or whatever to open it up a little. They sent it back with a note saying it was "normal." I guess I will just stick with the 10mm die from the same people, it must be "abnormal" but works better. It isn't just Lee, it's other makes as well.

Of course when you use steel dies, you must use sizing lube, then have the extra step of removing the lube afterward. Usually this is not an issue for me, I'm never in a hurry when I'm reloading. If I'm being lazy, I'll use a carbide sizing die with 9mm. It's not like you can tell much difference when shooting the finished product, one from the other. It's more a matter of pride of workmanship for me.

There is one potential technical issue with the hourglass shape on 9mm. It reduces case capacity, already critical under some conditions of reloading. However slight. But surely no danger under the conditions described in this thread.

 

[ron]

Carbide dies is what you want to use. I use Dillon dies for 9mm and 45 acp. Don't worry about the 'bikini' look. Dillon
dies sizes the brass a little more to hold the bullet very firm. I use mostly RCBS standard full length rifle dies for all my semi auto rifles.
223---308---30/06 I have been loading 9 mm on my Dillon for over 35 years.

 

[ron]

Compare load data from all major bullet and powder manufactures. Favorite reloading manual.

 

[damon32382]

This hour glass shape is the reason I've gone back to a set of steel dies for 9mm that I sometimes use. There are certain forms of what I call case deformation or distortion that carbide dies can impart to brass cartridge cases. The hourglass is one I don't like. Another deformation that results from some carbide dies is the creation of a ridge at the web of the case. Where the sizing process ends. Some will do it, some won't. I've got lots of die sets. They vary enough that sometimes you need more than one set to deal with different brands of cases. I've got three sets of .38 Super, for example.

I just got a carbide sizing die back from Lee. It's from a .40 S&W set. It will leave a ridge in the web of some brands of cases. I have another Lee carbide sizing die from a 10mm set but it's the same part. It never leaves a ridge. So I sent in the die from the .40 set, complaining about the ridge, asking that they polish the carbide ring or whatever to open it up a little. They sent it back with a note saying it was "normal." I guess I will just stick with the 10mm die from the same people, it must be "abnormal" but works better. It isn't just Lee, it's other makes as well.

Of course when you use steel dies, you must use sizing lube, then have the extra step of removing the lube afterward. Usually this is not an issue for me, I'm never in a hurry when I'm reloading. If I'm being lazy, I'll use a carbide sizing die with 9mm. It's not like you can tell much difference when shooting the finished product, one from the other. It's more a matter of pride of workmanship for me.

There is one potential technical issue with the hourglass shape on 9mm. It reduces case capacity, already critical under some conditions of reloading. However slight. But surely no danger under the conditions described in this thread.

That's

Carbide dies is what you want to use. I use Dillon dies for 9mm and 45 acp. Don't worry about the 'bikini' look. Dillon
dies sizes the brass a little more to hold the bullet very firm. I use mostly RCBS standard full length rifle dies for all my semi auto rifles.
223---308---30/06 I have been loading 9 mm on my Dillon for over 35 years.
View attachment 635409

Haha!! I like the term "bikini look"! Ok awesome...if it's purely cosmetic, then I won't worry so much. My Dillon XL750 came with carbide dies, so I'm using them as well. I think I'll just sell the 750+ projectiles I have for dirt cheap, mostly because my OCD gets the better of me.

 

[damon32382]

This hour glass shape is the reason I've gone back to a set of steel dies for 9mm that I sometimes use. There are certain forms of what I call case deformation or distortion that carbide dies can impart to brass cartridge cases. The hourglass is one I don't like. Another deformation that results from some carbide dies is the creation of a ridge at the web of the case. Where the sizing process ends. Some will do it, some won't. I've got lots of die sets. They vary enough that sometimes you need more than one set to deal with different brands of cases. I've got three sets of .38 Super, for example.

I just got a carbide sizing die back from Lee. It's from a .40 S&W set. It will leave a ridge in the web of some brands of cases. I have another Lee carbide sizing die from a 10mm set but it's the same part. It never leaves a ridge. So I sent in the die from the .40 set, complaining about the ridge, asking that they polish the carbide ring or whatever to open it up a little. They sent it back with a note saying it was "normal." I guess I will just stick with the 10mm die from the same people, it must be "abnormal" but works better. It isn't just Lee, it's other makes as well.

Of course when you use steel dies, you must use sizing lube, then have the extra step of removing the lube afterward. Usually this is not an issue for me, I'm never in a hurry when I'm reloading. If I'm being lazy, I'll use a carbide sizing die with 9mm. It's not like you can tell much difference when shooting the finished product, one from the other. It's more a matter of pride of workmanship for me.

There is one potential technical issue with the hourglass shape on 9mm. It reduces case capacity, already critical under some conditions of reloading. However slight. But surely no danger under the conditions described in this thread.

I'm definitely with you on that, I want my bullets to look good, and be safe to shoot of course. Glad to hear that's the case. I will watch my charges when going to a shorter OAL for sure

 

[gmerkt]

Carbide dies is what you want to use. I use Dillon dies for 9mm

My Dillon tool head for 9mm contains a Dillon carbide sizing die and it gives a minimum of "hourglass" distortion.

damon32382, look at the picture ron put in his post. Look at the whiteboard with load data of the moment on it. Check out his 115 gr. 9mm load. Short OAL because the XTP bullet is fairly short. But with that long bearing surface that tends to enhance accuracy.

 

[damon32382]

My Dillon tool head for 9mm contains a Dillon carbide sizing die and it gives a minimum of "hourglass" distortion.

damon32382, look at the picture ron put in his post. Look at the whiteboard with load data of the moment on it. Check out his 115 gr. 9mm load. Short OAL because the XTP bullet is fairly short. But with that long bearing surface that tends to enhance accuracy.

Well you're exactly right. Ran up to the range with 40 test rounds, and they were unbelievably accurate!! A little on the hot side, probably cause I kept the powder charge the same, but have a shorter OAL. But worked out great nevertheless!
Wanted to thank you and everyone for all your help in pointing me in the right direction

 

[gmerkt]

A little on the hot side, probably cause I kept the powder charge the same,

Sorry, I should've emphasized that I was pointing out the OAL, rather than the charge amount. Which is toward the upper end of the range but not max. But since previously you were loading slightly under minimum, anything within the "normal" band might be noticeably more powerful.

Appropos of nothing, I just packed up my Dillon 550 and removed it from the bench. I have it set up on a length of 2x6 so being clamped to the bench, it goes up and comes down easily. I have several work benches but there never seems to be enough horizontal surface. The space where the Dillon was set up is now occupied with a lawnmower getting carburetor work.

I used to know a guy who never seemed to have enough work bench space. So he built a new shop and in it he had 70 feet of countertop work surface. And the last time I visited him, he had every square inch covered with disassembled car parts, carbs, generators, starters, electric window motors, etc. Kind of a spacial version of the old economics addage, "Work expands to fill the time alloted." The more space you have, the more you fill it up.

 

[Mikej]

I used to know a guy who never seemed to have enough work bench space. So he built a new shop and in it he had 70 feet of countertop work surface. And the last time I visited him, he had every square inch covered with disassembled car parts, carbs, generators, starters, electric window motors, etc. Kind of a spacial version of the old economics addage, "Work expands to fill the time alloted." The more space you have, the more you fill it up.

MmmHm.

I don't have the bench space. I take the carb off the mower and put just the carb on the bench.

 

[gmerkt]

I don't have the bench space. I take the carb off the mower and put just the carb on the bench.

Yes but first you must take the carb off the mower. I don't like crawling around on the ground to do that. So up it goes.

 

[Mikej]

I don't like crawling around on the ground to do that

Well I don't either. But I also don't have the strength to lift it up there! Any more.

 

[gmerkt]

Well I don't either. But I also don't have the strength to lift it up there! Any more.

Oh man do I hear ya on that one. Maybe that's why I wear the knees out on trousers in spite of not liking to crawl around on the ground. Sometimes we just have to do what we don't necessarily like.

 

[DizzyJ]

You'll run into this when loading rifle cartridges too. As the bullet profile changes, so will the seating depth and OAL.

 

[BrandonQuixote]

My brass also looks like its wearing a corset when i load plated or "thick plated" bullets. I run all mine through a lee factory crimp die and it just squeezes the whole damn round to spec- i recommend one. I've noticed with the last 5-6k jacketed ARMSCOR RN's ive loaded over the last 3 months haven't had the curve, I run em through the LFCD anyway. The plunk test is a pretty rough chambering gauge, They'll plunk if they're seated WAY too short and that's when the serious problems arise, though your load data doesnt look too aggressive. I don't know your reloading skill level, but seating as long as you can/magazine will allow is usually the side you should err on...until you're hitting Grooves/lands on chambering. Also, try loading them in a magazine and make sure they'll load all the way down and will chamber with recoil spring force. Id say; measure, load into a mag, release the slide to chamber, eject and measure again to see if you're going too long and getting set-back, or if its exceptionally difficult to eject, you're probably too long or need to adjust another die.

 

[gmerkt]

I run all mine through a lee factory crimp die and it just squeezes the whole damn round to spec-

I have wondered about this. I am aware of the Lee Factory Crimp Die for pistol cartridges. I may even have one somewhere, seems like I remember getting one with some other stuff. What I wonder about is the increased friction between the bullet and the inside wall of the case mouth. We always like good bullet tension in reloaded ammo. BUT. I don't remember the proper technical words used, but the more friction that exists between bullet and case brass, the more resistance that is given to the burning propellant at the moment of ignition. In other words, if the bullet doesn't want to go, it resists the power of the burning propellant. Which means pressures can rise due to excessive friction before the actual release of the bullet occurs. Just something to think about, don't know that it's ever been a practical problem.

Some of the thickest (and weakest) brass I've ever encountered was AMERC. So you take something like a plated or these days a coated bullet that tends to be a little on the fat side, then stuff it into an AMERC case, then swage it down (that's what you're doing, I know that word) with a LFCD for pistol, it's gonna be just this side of dynamite. Especially 9mm.

AMERC brass as I've said was overly thick. But it was weak. And that's why it was thick, to compensate for weakness. That's all I can figure. The fired cases with a bubble near the head that had been fired in pistols having barrel designs that didn't fully support the case head, that was routine with AMERC. By the way, Lee also makes a tool for smoothing out those bubbles in cases. Lee Bulge Buster. But some people don't think those bubbled cases would be reloaded again. They say once deformed that way, the brass is compromised. In other words, pushing it back into something like it's original shape doesn't completely "heal" it in terms of strength. More metallurgy terms that I don't remember. Often I can remember a basic concept but not all the terms and details.

Why does the thickness of brass vary from one brand to another? Small to middling size ammo manufacturers mostly don't even make their own cartridge cases, they buy from someone else. So for discussion, I'll just keep to the majors. They have large enterprises with large machines and assembly lines to make ammo. They adjust their machines to operate to certain standards. Take Remington, for example. My experience is that their .45 ACP cases are the thinnest. I save them for fatter bullets. But why are they thinner? Well, they use approx. .451 bullets but their machines are set to work with thinner brass cases which work perfectly fine with their own equipment. But they aren't using (for example) RCBS dies, they are using some proprietary dies that run tighter to use their own brass. Thinner brass times millions and millions of rounds means money saved on material.

 

[Certaindeaf]

I have wondered about this. I am aware of the Lee Factory Crimp Die for pistol cartridges. I may even have one somewhere, seems like I remember getting one with some other stuff. What I wonder about is the increased friction between the bullet and the inside wall of the case mouth. We always like good bullet tension in reloaded ammo. BUT. I don't remember the proper technical words used, but the more friction that exists between bullet and case brass, the more resistance that is given to the burning propellant at the moment of ignition. In other words, if the bullet doesn't want to go, it resists the power of the burning propellant. Which means pressures can rise due to excessive friction before the actual release of the bullet occurs. Just something to think about, don't know that it's ever been a practical problem.

Some of the thickest (and weakest) brass I've ever encountered was AMERC. So you take something like a plated or these days a coated bullet that tends to be a little on the fat side, then stuff it into an AMERC case, then swage it down (that's what you're doing, I know that word) with a LFCD for pistol, it's gonna be just this side of dynamite. Especially 9mm.

AMERC brass as I've said was overly thick. But it was weak. And that's why it was thick, to compensate for weakness. That's all I can figure. The fired cases with a bubble near the head that had been fired in pistols having barrel designs that didn't fully support the case head, that was routine with AMERC. By the way, Lee also makes a tool for smoothing out those bubbles in cases. Lee Bulge Buster. But some people don't think those bubbled cases would be reloaded again. They say once deformed that way, the brass is compromised. In other words, pushing it back into something like it's original shape doesn't completely "heal" it in terms of strength. More metallurgy terms that I don't remember. Often I can remember a basic concept but not all the terms and details.

Why does the thickness of brass vary from one brand to another? Small to middling size ammo manufacturers mostly don't even make their own cartridge cases, they buy from someone else. So for discussion, I'll just keep to the majors. They have large enterprises with large machines and assembly lines to make ammo. They adjust their machines to operate to certain standards. Take Remington, for example. My experience is that their .45 ACP cases are the thinnest. I save them for fatter bullets. But why are they thinner? Well, they use approx. .451 bullets but their machines are set to work with thinner brass cases which work perfectly fine with their own equipment. But they aren't using (for example) RCBS dies, they are using some proprietary dies that run tighter to use their own brass. Thinner brass times millions and millions of rounds means money saved on material.

Most people think the Lee FCD reduces neck tension due to disparate spring back of the case and bullet.