6 Dead, Dying, and Soon-To-Be-Obsolete Handgun Cartridges

[The Heretic]

One poster on NWF pointed out that it took 100 years for the industry to replicate the ballistics of the .38 WCF (30-40) cartridge with the 40 S&W. But it is indeed a rimless cartridge! And doesn't make as much smoke as the black powder original.

The .40 is just a 10mm short, or the 10mm is a .40 magnum. Some people have been playing around with reloading the .40 to 10mm ballistics, which is not surprising since the .40 case is just as strong as the 10mm, just shorter. I wouldn't shoot those hot loads in my aluminum frame SIGs (at least not make a habit of it), but I would in steel framed guns, or in Glocks with a fully supported chamber. The 10mm is not as popular in ammo sales, but a lot of people like it (despite the fact that it is only slightly more powerful than the .45 ACP).

What I like about the .40 is that it is more powerful than the 9x19, but can be found in 9x19 sized guns, has only slightly more recoil than the 9x19, and noticeably less than the .45 ACP, with the same ballistics as the .45 ACP - at least in my opinion. The only real downside for me is that I lose 2-3 rounds of capacity (sometimes more) in the same sized mags.

 

[03A3Sporter]

There were several fellas that said the same of 41 long colt in years gone by as well .. Some of em were noteworthy enough to have their thoughts published and to be fair back when they said it it was a very popular cartridge. You seen a new box of 41 Long Colt Lately?


What made the 40 S&W popular was wholesale adoption of it by LE Agencies , most have moved on to 9mm by now, same with users of 357 Sig . The 9x19 is ubiquitous and cheap which makes it very popular with people who have to spend large amounts of money buying ammo for officers to use on duty , and training / quals .

40 will never go away. Haters been hating for many years. Yes it may not be quite "as good" as 9 but lots of people love it, including me.

 

[Ducati_Meister]

I loved carrying the .357 Sig round for defense. A bit spendy but I like the ballistics it made with the 125 gr. Load. I carry the 9mm NATO round as my only .357 Sig cal. gun, my G32 got stolen a few years ago when my car got broken into.
The .45 GAP was an interesting idea, just never had the popularity as some might had hoped for. The .40 is still a great round, can't see that disappearing anytime soon. I still shoot the .25 ACP "mouse gun" round but it's nothing I'd carry personally.

 

[Longwalkhome]

It seemed over the years everyone was trying to kill the 25 and 32 acp. Jeff Cooper told stories of complete failures in stopping even women with the 25acp. Writers condemned the small guns as not accurate or powerful enough for self defense even though the 32acp was used by European cops for many years before switching to the 380.

Again its worthless opinion of mine but because the 25s and 32s were small guns they were used in crimes a lot so the gun community worked to talk those out of public hands.

I carry a 25 on my dog walks every day and don't feel under gunned. It hides well in summer clothes and I shoot it often enough to trust it. I have not got any other gun in centerfire caliber that fits a shirt pocket and you can't tell its there. I like them but ymmv

 

[Luvmegrandkids]

Too many guns in circulation in .32 ACP and .40 S&W for this to be true.

-E-

I agree with you on the 40 S&W but I've had no experience with 32ACP.
Honestly I like the 40 a whole lot, since not too long ago I was able to acquire 1800 rounds of Federal 40 S&W for just under $400. It was a steal, I admit it. I have learned to like that cartridge a lot since then. And I actually enjoy the recoil of the 40 also.

 

[The Heretic]

There were several fellas that said the same of 41 long colt in years gone by as well .. Some of em were noteworthy enough to have their thoughts published and to be fair back when they said it it was a very popular cartridge. You seen a new box of 41 Long Colt Lately?

Never really heard of it, much less shot it.

What made the 40 S&W popular was wholesale adoption of it by LE Agencies , most have moved on back to 9mm by now, same with users of 357 Sig . The 9x19 is ubiquitous and cheap which makes it very popular with people who have to spend large amounts of money buying ammo for officers to use on duty , and training / quals .

There - fixed that for you.

The primary reasons for moving back to 9x19 were:

1) Lower cost? Not sure about this, but I am sure the gun manufacturers were quite happy to sell PDs 9x19 pistols to replace the 40s they had.

2) Better qualifications by some - which I don't really understand; I have 9x19 and .40 and .45 in the same or very similar SIGs (P226 and P227). I've shot those SIGs back to back and the .40 just doesn't have that much more recoil than the 9x19, whereas the .45 ACP has noticeably more recoil than either 9mm or .40.

3) Being in synch with the military?

I wasn't a fan of the .40 at first. For me it was 9x19 or .45 ACP. I don't feel undergunned with the 9x19, but when I realized that I could have the better ballistics of the .40, with similar recoil and the same guns, ballistics very close to the .45 ACP with less recoil than the .45 ACP, then I did become a fan. It didn't hurt any that a lot of LEs and security guards and some others, were also switching back to 9mm and selling their .40 guns and ammo - I glommed onto that and now I have 2X+ the .40 ammo than I have in 9x19 - almost all of it 180 gr. HST or SXT at 1050 fps, which IMO is no slouch and better than 115 gr @1200 fps.

YMMV

 

[Longwalkhome]

I believe every 10mm should have been sold with a 40 cal conversion. Cheaper to train with and doesn't beat the gun up. Like most pistol calibers the 40 does what it was designed for and there are many great guns that shoot 40. I can't see it dieing as long as ammo is cheap. What seems to kill a caliber is what it cost to shoot it.

Now I flapped my jaws with my opinions and enjoy the heck out of reading yours.

 

[Knobgoblin]

Just saw an ad for gen5 glock 23 optics ready on CDNN . Same price as exact same offering in 9mm G19.

So, .40 is not dead by a long shot.

 

[03A3Sporter]

Never really heard of it, much less shot it.


There - fixed that for you.

The primary reasons for moving back to 9x19 were:

1) Lower cost? Not sure about this, but I am sure the gun manufacturers were quite happy to sell PDs 9x19 pistols to replace the 40s they had.

2) Better qualifications by some - which I don't really understand; I have 9x19 and .40 and .45 in the same or very similar SIGs (P226 and P227). I've shot those SIGs back to back and the .40 just doesn't have that much more recoil than the 9x19, whereas the .45 ACP has noticeably more recoil than either 9mm or .40.

3) Being in synch with the military?

I wasn't a fan of the .40 at first. For me it was 9x19 or .45 ACP. I don't feel undergunned with the 9x19, but when I realized that I could have the better ballistics of the .40, with similar recoil and the same guns, ballistics very close to the .45 ACP with less recoil than the .45 ACP, then I did become a fan. It didn't hurt any that a lot of LEs and security guards and some others, were also switching back to 9mm and selling their .40 guns and ammo - I glommed onto that and now I have 2X+ the .40 ammo than I have in 9x19 - almost all of it 180 gr. HST or SXT at 1050 fps, which IMO is no slouch and better than 115 gr @1200 fps.

YMMV

Not shocked you haven't heard of 41 Long Colt , doesn't mean it wasn't very popular in it's day , before the advent of 357 Magnum it was considered a better man stopper than 38 Special and was widely extolled as an effective cartridge by shooting legends such as Ed McGivern and Elmer Keith.

It did not wane in popularity really until the 1940's and by that time had been around for several decades .


I meant what I said , most departments where I am from never went to 9mm to start with . OHP for example went from 357 Magnum , their traditiona; cartridge for decades to 45 ACP and P220 then to 357 Sig, then finally in 2014-2015 to 9mm. Most departments in Oklahoma went from 38/357 to 45 to 40 cal and now 9mm in recent years.

Nationally a lot of departments adopted 9mm very late on . Some large departments adopted it earlier than others like NYPD , but many did indeed go rom revolvers to 40 cal or 45 then to 40 cal.


9mm is absolutely cheaper to make and normally when there is not a mass panic happening cheaper to buy . If for no other reason than it takes less resources to make a round of 9mm vs 40 .

As far as your preferences .. To quote Saint Clint... Do what you want .

 

[Knobgoblin]

Never really heard of it, much less shot it.


There - fixed that for you.

The primary reasons for moving back to 9x19 were:

1) Lower cost? Not sure about this, but I am sure the gun manufacturers were quite happy to sell PDs 9x19 pistols to replace the 40s they had.

2) Better qualifications by some - which I don't really understand; I have 9x19 and .40 and .45 in the same or very similar SIGs (P226 and P227). I've shot those SIGs back to back and the .40 just doesn't have that much more recoil than the 9x19, whereas the .45 ACP has noticeably more recoil than either 9mm or .40.

3) Being in synch with the military?

I wasn't a fan of the .40 at first. For me it was 9x19 or .45 ACP. I don't feel undergunned with the 9x19, but when I realized that I could have the better ballistics of the .40, with similar recoil and the same guns, ballistics very close to the .45 ACP with less recoil than the .45 ACP, then I did become a fan. It didn't hurt any that a lot of LEs and security guards and some others, were also switching back to 9mm and selling their .40 guns and ammo - I glommed onto that and now I have 2X+ the .40 ammo than I have in 9x19 - almost all of it 180 gr. HST or SXT at 1050 fps, which IMO is no slouch and better than 115 gr @1200 fps.

YMMV

.40 is more flinchy than 9mm
Don't ask me why. I've seen it. Especially with people who don't enjoy shooting.

 

[nwslopoke]

How many people complaining about the 40 don't have any experience with it? As far as the smaller calibers, some countries have limits on calibers I believe.

Just did a search. 25, 32 & 380 still much more than 9mm. Though this week I saw 9mm available 2 locations locally. Still inflated but not insane.

 

[Koda]

has the 400 Corbon died yet?
Corbon still makes ammo but Im guessing thats a matter of pride than any profits....

 

[Provincial]

The .41 Long Colt was a black powder cartridge that had ballistics similar to the 38 Special. It had a groove diameter of .406, the same diameter as the outside of the case, and used a heeled bullet, like the .22 Long Rifle. It was fairly popular in both single- and double-action revolvers.

The heeled bullet made it less popular, as the lubrication groove was exposed on the loaded cartridge. The popularity of the 38 Special lead to its downfall.

 

[American123]

I predict 40 SW will make a comeback after the 9mm market is thoroughly milked again and manufacturers need to do something to convince people to still buy guns but this time chambered in the improved 40 SW. Guns generally don't wear out, at least for nearly I'd estimate 99% or more of gun owners. Manufacturers need to continually convince people they need to keep buying more.

 

[American123]

Because .357 sig is the issued sidearm caliber for all of wakanda.

You just don't know that because wakandon't exist.
Or does it ?

The sad part about this is that "Does Wakanda exist" was the most googled search item when the movie "The Black Panther" came out.

This only adds to the pile of reasons when I consider "the general public" I think the equivalence of absolute morons.

 

[The Heretic]

.40 is more flinchy than 9mm
Don't ask me why. I've seen it. Especially with people who don't enjoy shooting.

I would like to try an experiment sometime; have someone shoot my .40 226 and my Mk25 (same gun) in 9x19 with hearing protection and have them try to pick which one is 9x19 and which .40 S&W. I can barely tell the difference.

 

[gmerkt]

My good pal Mark in New Mexico brought this article to my attention. Yes, these are all cartridges in declining popularity. Are they in danger of extinction? Not so long as guns that take them still exist. And there are very many still around in all of these chamberings.

.45 GAP is least loved on that list. Therefore probably most likely to disappear into obscurity first. Repeat, but so long as there are guns in .45 GAP around...

.41 Mag has been on the dead or dying list for decades already. Funny thing, new guns are still made in .41 Mag and in my own experience it has a very strong following. Maybe not hugely numerous but you can quickly sell just about anything in .41 Mag. It goes fast.

It is utterly ridiculous to predict the demise of .40 S&W. There are just way too many guns in this caliber floating around.

One thing about out-of-favor cartridges during a supply famine. The major manufacturers tend to focus on what they can move the most off. It's a matter of manufacturing economy. Because even the biggest companies aren't set up to make everything in their catalog simultaneously. They make products in rotation in normal times. When everyone in America is scouring the countryside for certain popular cartridges, they are gonna focus on making those until demand eases. They don't have any reason to change tooling over for slower sellers. Which means that you won't find the slower-movers on the shelf until the famine has abated.

Some manufacturers plan ahead. Again, I'm speaking of normal times. When they set up to run a particular product, they make more than they can package and ship, then place this surplus in storage. As a reservoir to make up for bumps and bubbles in demand and production cycle.

Hate the Gunbroker sellers, but right now they are acting as a civilian reserve that supplies ammunition, including hard-to-get stuff that hasn't seen the light of day for years. In one of the previous famines, I made mental fun of people who were filling their basements with ammo. I said, "One day, they are gonna wake up and wonder what they are gonna do with all that ammo." Well, now we know.

 

[trevi]

I think it's better than 9mm myself, but it's essentially the 45 GAP to the 10mm. Daddy is just sooo much better in most ways. I love the 357 Sig but I think it's going away faster than the 40.

I love the 357 SIG but I have realised it really is not that much better than the 9mm Luger in regular loads. I have done impromptu testing: 357 SIG vs 9mm and found they penetrated the barriers the same. I have gone back to the 9mm, but still carry the 357 as EDC until I no longer have said ammo, and I am re-embracing the 40 SW, now that I have a 10mm Auto but I will not get carried away by buying 40 SW guns again. I never hated the round.

 

[The Heretic]

Not shocked you haven't heard of 41 Long Colt , doesn't mean it wasn't very popular in it's day , before the advent of 357 Magnum it was considered a better man stopper than 38 Special and was widely extolled as an effective cartridge by shooting legends such as Ed McGivern and Elmer Keith.

It did not wane in popularity really until the 1940's and by that time had been around for several decades .

As I was born in the '50s, it was before my time.

 

[trevi]

I saw that article a while ago. I noticed the inclusion of .40 S&W. It is far from obsolete - according to NSSF (IIRC), it is the second most popular handgun ammo being sold. I believe it is better than 9x19, by quite a bit.

Now .357 SIG - why didn't they include that instead of .40? Not very popular and only a bit faster than 9mm +P+.

Does not the Secret Service still carry the 357 SIG? I remember being a spokesperson for this cartridge , I just love it but even then I am dropping it, too.