Washington 1639 and C&R FFL

[MattMaier]

Here's a thought that popped into my mind. 1639 classifies all semiautomatic rifles as "assault rifles" and requires a safety certification to purchase as well as a 10 day cooldown period before one can take their purchase home. How does this affect C&R license holders? Given, for instance, that a C&R license allows for C&R firearms to be shipped directly to a home address. Federally, an M1 Garand is considered a C&R, but under WA state law, it is an assault rifle. It's very confusing.

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[User 1234]

1639 does not require the training to purchase one. It requires a dealer to verify training before delivering to a purchaser. C&R FFLs can buy most types of C&R guns without a dealer being involved in the transaction.

https://www.sos.wa.gov/_assets/elections/initiatives/finaltext_1531.pdf

Note the "no dealer may deliver until" language.

 

[Talos32]

I asked the same question a few days ago. If you look at the law one of the very last sections says something to the effect of "does not apply to curio and relic license holders when purchasing curios and relics."

Sounds like as long as it's over 50 years old you can have it sent directly to you and I only have to worry about the federal laws. Since I mostly like older guns anyway, I'm going to get a C&R and say goodbye to any worries about i1639. It sucks that I won't be able to just grab a new production gun that strikes my fancy, but so be it.

 

[User 1234]

The question is whether 1639 applies to the purchase of a C&R semi auto rifle from an FFL dealer even when the buyer has a C&R license. The Washington Attorney General would certainly take the position that it does because he is an advocate for 1639 and wants to treat it as broadly as possible. He would probably take the position that even an out of state FFL dealer must comply with 1639 before sending a C&R semi auto rifle to a Washington C&R holder. It will take a test case to get courts to interpret these issues. I am not personally going to test the boundaries, and don't desire to buy any more guns at the moment regardless.

 

[User 1234]

I do know that South Sound 911 told at least one person that they believed that the CMP would be included in the definition of a "dealer" and they believed the CMP would need to ship a Garand to a Washington FFL dealer for 1639 compliance before the Washington FFL dealer could transfer it to the C&R licensee. Until 1639 is interpreted by the courts or struck down there is a lot of risk in buying semi auto rifles without going through a Washington based FFL dealer and jumping through the 1639 hoops.

 

[TCOV]

The question is whether 1639 applies to the purchase of a C&R semi auto rifle from an FFL dealer even when the buyer has a C&R license. The Washington Attorney General would certainly take the position that it does because he is an advocate for 1639 and wants to treat it as broadly as possible. He would probably take the position that even an out of state FFL dealer must comply with 1639 before sending a C&R semi auto rifle to a Washington C&R holder. It will take a test case to get courts to interpret these issues. I am not personally going to test the boundaries, and don't desire to buy any more guns at the moment regardless.

RCW 9.141.113 clearly and without qualifiers honors a a C&R collectors license. Dealers have always had the option to honor or not honor the C&R license. So yes, a C&R licensed collector may purchase a C&R qualified firearm without a background check and may receive them directly to their home per federal law. CMP and dealers may have their own rules but they are not law.

 

[Talos32]

RCW 9.141.113 clearly and without qualifiers honors a a C&R collectors license. Dealers have always had the option to honor or not honor the C&R license. So yes, a C&R licensed collector may purchase a C&R qualified firearm without a background check and may receive them directly to their home per federal law. CMP and dealers may have their own rules but they are not law.

This. Paragraph 3b states the requirement to follow semiauto rifle rules, but paragraph 4 states that the entire section of the law does not apply to C&R "purchases or transfers" when the buyer has an 03 FFL. It makes no distinction whether or not the purchase is made from an 01 FFL.

 

[User 1234]

RCW 9.141.113 clearly and without qualifiers honors a a C&R collectors license. Dealers have always had the option to honor or not honor the C&R license. So yes, a C&R licensed collector may purchase a C&R qualified firearm without a background check and may receive them directly to their home per federal law. CMP and dealers may have their own rules but they are not law.

Personally I agree with you. But as the saying goes "you can beat the rap but you can't beat the ride." I could definitely see the AG or a Seattle based prosecutor filing charges and arguing that the specific "no dealer shall deliver" subsection is not specifically exempted by the C&R exception. I would not doubt that the AG is looking for a test case.

 

[Talos32]

Personally I agree with you. But as the saying goes "you can beat the rap but you can't beat the ride." I could definitely see the AG or a Seattle based prosecutor filing charges and arguing that the specific "no dealer shall deliver" subsection is not specifically exempted by the C&R exception. I would not doubt that the AG is looking for a test case.

I think that's a stretch. There's no ambiguity in the law except that manufactured by someone trying to invent a case, so it's a guaranteed loss. Turd Ferguson aspires to higher office, and a malicious prosecution (particularly one doomed to failure) is not going to win him any points.

I know the left hates guns, but "vindictive AG harasses antique gun collector" is not a narrative that he probably even wants to have to deal with.

 

[User 1234]

9.41.113 exempts C&R holders from the Washington background check and dealer transfer requirements of I-594 for C&R purchases, and federal law of course allows C&R licensees to acquire C&R guns under the license because the background check was accomplished during the license application process. The Washington AG would be looking for any situation where a dealer was involved to argue that the 1639 requirements still applied because a dealer was delivering to a purchaser, even though the C&R holder could have made the purchase from a non-dealer. I hope you are right that the AG knows how bad the optics would look if 1639 became the cause associated with the prosecution of an older suburban hunter who bought a 1960 self loading Remington from an Idaho FFL dealer after obtaining a federal collector's FFL.

 

[weimar_police]

I saw this thread in a google search - I was about to download the Rifle PDF from CMP, when I noticed this;

Rifle Sales - Civilian Marksmanship Program

CMP rifles are able to be purchased within our stores in Alabama and Ohio as well as through mail. Learn about all of our available firearms.

thecmp.org

WA, NY, NJ and CT customers who have already mailed their rifle orders to CMP should provide [email protected] with dealer information or order cancellation instructions. Information can also be faxed to 256-835-3527 or mailed to CMP Customer Service

Rifle shipments to WA & CT must be made to licensed or dealer or may be shipped directly to the customer if a C&R license is provided. IL can only ship to address on FOID card.

 

[User 1234]

People have gotten conflicting responses from agencies in Washington about ordering Garands, but the CMP has decided to require Washington purchasers to go through an FFL dealer, so no use debating it.

 

[TerekV]

To me it looks as though CMP will ship it directly to the customer if a C&R license is provided.

Has anyone tried (or know anyone who has) Guinea Pigging the C&R route with anything yet? I've been considering getting a C&R, and this may be the push to actually get one if this route is lawful.

 

[Moeca]

I emailed the CMP in Jan with this question first response was not to c&r. 20 minutes later a second email from them that said they would ship to c&r in Washington. So ordered a service grade sent in mid jan and 8 weeks later it showed up. So for now it's a go on getting them but not sure its gonna last!

 

[DLS]

A holder of a C&R IS a licensed dealer, they hold a Type 3 FFL . Just as a Type 1, 2 or 9 are licensed dealers with varying levels of authority.

A Type 3 license is limited to a curio and relic arms as defined by the ATF, but they still are a licensed dealer.

Keep this in mind when reading the statutes. The only time a background check is involved with a Type 3 dealer and a C&R firearm is when the Type 3 dealer transfers that firearm to a non-dealer person … such as when selling out of his collection. The background check would be run on the purchaser, not the dealer themselves.

A type 3 dealer, when dealing with a C&R firearm, has already gone through the required background check (when getting the license) and is covered by that until the license is revoked or expires.

 

[User 1234]

An 03 FFL is not a dealer. Not even a dealer of C&R firearms.

 

[DLS]

It is according to the ATF, this information can be found all over their site. Here's just one link:

Types of Federal Firearms Licenses (FFLs) | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives

Types of Federal Firearms Licensees (FFLs): What is an FFL? An individual who is licensed to engage in the business of manufacturing, importing and/or dealing in firearms. Persons must be licensed by ATF to engage in the business of firearms. Types of FFLs: Dealers: 01 – Dealer in firearms other...

www.atf.gov

According to ATF nomenclature a 'Collector of Curios and Relics' (Type 3) is a sub category of dealer … but still classified as a dealer for the purposes of statutes, policies etc.

 

[User 1234]

If you look at your own link you will see that C&R licensees are in the "other" category as "collectors" not in the dealer category.

 

[User 1234]

 

[User 1234]

Also Washington law does not include C&R FFLs in the definition of "dealer."