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14″ Mossberg Non-NFA Scattergun

Discussion in 'General Firearm Discussion' started by Chee-to, Apr 3, 2015.

  1. Chee-to

    Chee-to Oregon Well-Known Member

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    14″ Mossberg Non-NFA Scattergun
    RG500.11a1-1-660x495.jpg

    Under current ATF rulings, its possible to create a non-NFA firearm that uses shotgun rounds (note, I did not say “shotgun” which refers to a specific legal definition). By never mounting a stock to a receiver and keeping the over-all length over 26″, Shockwave technologies Raptor grips keep a scattergun legal to own. Users who purchase these must keep the grips on, otherwise they become an AOW requiring registration.

    unnamed1.jpg
    Photo courtesy of 802Traders.com

    Shockwave has the full details of the rulings (with appropriate letters from the ATF) available on their website. You can check the details and Shockwave by clicking the link here. The “Raptor” grip as its called is available for both Mossberg 500 and Remington 870 shotguns.

    - See more at: http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2015/03/26/14-mossberg-non-nfa-scattergun/#sthash.STPWbBLV.dpuf
     
  2. ZA_Survivalist

    ZA_Survivalist Oregon AK's all day.

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    I love when they find loopholes that the brainiacs at the ATF havent thought of.

    Shoot, Id get one just to have it.
    Hope paperwork comes with it.

    Wait.. Are they sure about the 14" barrel thing?
    I knew that regular pistol grips on a shotgun were in the grey area.. But a 14" barrel makes me nervous unless its sold that way. From the looks of the site it seems that just the forearm and grip are for sale.. The grip being just long enough to polish out that 26" OL
     
  3. coupeowner

    coupeowner SW Portland Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    I just MAY know of somebody :cool: who built one after seeing them for sale on SlickGuns for about $650.

    I am not a legal expert, but here is some of the stuff to watch out for:

    Know that you need to start w/ a pistol-grip version of the 500/590. If it started life w/ a stock on it, then it was and is always will be a shotgun (trouble). I will be keeping evidence of the original configuration.

    Do not use the existing Mossberg pistol grip as the overall length will be less than 26" (trouble). Only the Shockwave Raptor grip (that I know of) is considered a pistol grip while also meeting the overall length (26.5").

    All the parts you need (except the grip) are available from Mossberg for about $220.

    Going to try out the "Mossy Shorty" this weekend.
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2015
    ZA_Survivalist likes this.
  4. Strykervet

    Strykervet Pierce Co. Member

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    I called the ATF and asked them. When I hear these kinds of questions, I usually just call them and ignore the "sage internet wisdom".

    ATF said it's not a shotgun and isn't a registered AOW so it doesn't even fall under their jurisdiction. They said not to bother registering it unless I wanted to use the factory grip or otherwise make it shorter than 26".

    WA State AG has an opinion on this EXACT question (asked by a law maker no less) years ago that you can find online. In it, he sided with the ATF and federal law, citing that since it never was a "shotgun" (must have had a stock) and isn't a registered AOW (is 26"+ in length) it doesn't fall under state jurisdiction.

    Basically it doesn't fall under any firearms laws, it's always been in it's own little land. But yeah, you MUST start with a PGO "shotgun" (in quotes because technically a shotgun has a buttstock) and it MUST stay 26"+.

    There are also people that have made their own birdshead grips before.

    Using the 14"bbl. won't make it any shorter with this grip, it LOOKS shorter but it isn't, it's actually .5" longer. It is easier for some people to handle though and it will open up the pattern too.

    If you aren't sure, just call and ask. You'd be surprised at what is legal sometimes. ATF has helped me out a few times, and trust me, I register what I have to, I have a full Schedule A to prove it. And when I mess up, they send me a correction letter, I unscrew it and send it back and I'm good to go again.

    In this case, many just "assumed" right off the bat this was illegal, but all they care about is smooth bore weapons over 1/2" bore being 26" or longer. They don't care how you get it there provided it never was intended to be shoulder fired (PGO). A 3" bbl. is fine so long as it's 26" through the handle.

    However, check your state laws as this ONLY applies here in WA and with regards to federal law, can't say what your state defines as a shotgun and what it defines as an AOW and how it handles areas in between. If it's the same as the feds, chances are this is legal, but maybe you want to get an AG opinion too?
     
    IronMonster likes this.
  5. ogre

    ogre Vancouver, WA Well-Known Member

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    Nice. How many rounds does it hold?
     
  6. The Heretic

    The Heretic Oregon Well-Known Member

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    Meh - if I want a short non-NFA shotgun, I will get a bullpup (Mossberg used to make one). I want to be able to put it to my shoulder so I can aim and control it properly. I have yet to see any pistol grip only shotgun that allowed a good secure and aimable firing stance like a shotgun you can put to your shoulder.

    Despite the "pattern", being able to aim a shotgun properly still makes a big difference in whether you hit your target, especially closeup where the pattern is still small.

    But different strokes for different folks.
     
    ikemay and Redcap like this.
  7. Flopsweat

    Flopsweat Slightly right of center Well-Known Member

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    The KSG is pretty nice. The price is coming down on them lately too.
     
    Redcap likes this.
  8. coupeowner

    coupeowner SW Portland Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    Ogre - Five 2-3/4" Shells in the tube. I have not been able to try 3" shells yet.

    And use a heat gun to break the lock-tite on the mag tube on the newer mossbergs.
     
  9. drewp

    drewp 503pdx Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    Id just buy a cheap shot gun like a mossberg 500 ($150 used) and spend $200 on a sbs stamp and be done then cut the barrel to any length i want and ill still get to shoulder it...way cooler than this gun posted about.
     
  10. coupeowner

    coupeowner SW Portland Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    Yup.

    For me "The Loophole" would not be a primary weapon. It is a darn fun toy that kicks like a dwarf mule on crank. I like that the government is not involved, there is no wait time, it is made of factory parts, it could be sold today for more than the cost to put together (evidenced by them selling for $650), and did I mention the government isn't involved? I would also like a sawed off shotgun someday too.....No reason I can't have both! :)

    And another suggestion to anyone considering assembling one: Do not conceal the thing or it DOES become a problem w/ATF


    Albin25 - Unfortunately I don't believe the 14" front end parts are available from Mossberg in anything other than 12 GA.
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2015
  11. The Heretic

    The Heretic Oregon Well-Known Member

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    After the SIG arm brace fiasco and other areas where the ATF has changed their minds on things like this (including the "street sweeper" crap), I am leery of such "loopholes" and gray areas. Especially when I see a better solution (bullpups) and I would question whether any LEO (even the ATF jackboots outside of the tech branch) would know that this loophole exists.

    As for concealment, I don't think the ATF gets involved in that kind of enforcement - that is more of a local issue than a federal one.
     
  12. Alfonse

    Alfonse North Central Washington Member

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    A friend of mine has the pistol grip Mossberg. He has a birds head grip for it, and it is much nicer to shoot with that grip. It is even fun to shoot up a box of shells. With the stock grip, I don't like to fire it at all.

    The other thing that surprised me is how accurate I am with it, with basically no practice, at 25 feet or less.

    He does not have the mods described, but it is certainly a fun toy with the birds head grip. I can think of far worse firearms to have in a close quarters confrontation as well.
     
  13. coupeowner

    coupeowner SW Portland Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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  14. coupeowner

    coupeowner SW Portland Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    I just read that as of a week ago or so Mossberg is no longer selling the conversion kit to the public :mad:. Losers.
     
  15. Strykervet

    Strykervet Pierce Co. Member

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    It's easier to not order the conversion kit --you may already have many of the parts. So just order the individual parts. And if they won't sell them to you directly, just order from Brownell's or elsewhere. If you have the means to modify the parts yourself (access to a metal shop) then do that instead and save all the money (and if you want it shorter than 26", pay the $200 stamp and fill out a Form 1, wait, and then convert it to an AOW yourself --or an SBS if you live in OR).

    It's not a "loophole" it's actually the law. It's only a gray area because it's not discussed much. In short, a PGO smoothbore isn't a "shotgun" because a "shotgun" by definition has a buttstock. It's an AOW, but not a registered one because it's 26" or longer. WA state law is consistent with federal law on this one and there is an AG decision to the WA legislature to back it up. I wouldn't compare this with the SIG arm brace, as that device is clearly an end run around the law. The birds head grip does nothing but shift length from barrel to grip, and as the OAL is the only factor to consider, the barrel can be as short as you like provided the entire contraption is 26" or more and can't be shoulder fired.

    Now a sawed off stock to make a birds head that still retains some of the stock portion that could still be shouldered no matter how uncomfortable or short, that could be viewed as the SIG arm brace is, particularly if people begin using it for that (and once you leave a portion that can be shouldered and then DO shoulder it, you've just created an illegal SBS by law). It's why you should use a full rounded birds head grip if you go this route, regardless of whether you cut down a stock (from another weapon or none at all!) or make it from scratch or simply buy one.

    As for SBS's, yeah, I agree. But to do that in WA is to build an illegal Title 2 firearm and I didn't get a trust and spend all this money on tax stamps and jump through hoops for SBR's and suppressors and maybe a DD here in the future just to jeopardize it all for a short barrel shotgun or a PGO. Hell, I don't even use shotguns or like them that much!

    Aiming and all is great, but if you can't pointshoot a shotgun at 20 feet at a man size target, you probably shouldn't be handling firearms in the first place. And that's about all these PGO's are intended for --short ranges in-home or for breaching doors. Not bad for a vehicle either, and if you can purchase it on pistol paperwork you can carry it loaded and concealed (may have to AOW it for this on a Form 1 to get that designation). There is a guy I'm aware of in WA that carries a Serbu SS concealed, FWIW.

    WA residents can possess DD's though, so a Striker 12 or Street Sweeper may be an alternative for an SBS shotgun (provided barrel length isn't an issue with DD's, I never looked into it).