WTH Happened Here?? Brown fuzzy lint in gun powder storage box

[Hueco]

I was told by older reloaders that your powder and primer should be stored in wooden boxes or cabinets, that's where mine reside.

Did that older reloader happen to mention why they stored in wood? I'd have thought that storing in a thicker metal toolbox would be ideal: less airflow in/out so slower changes in temperature and humidity, if the powder combusts, it'll likely burn out it's oxygen supply before doing any damage outside the box, and even if it did burn, the box should contain most of it (as opposed to wood, where it becomes fuel for the fire).

But, I also know jack diddly about reloading and am looking to learn, and not eff up too much, along the way.

 

[Caveman Jim]

Did that older reloader happen to mention why they stored in wood? I'd have thought that storing in a thicker metal toolbox would be ideal: less airflow in/out so slower changes in temperature and humidity, if the powder combusts, it'll likely burn out it's oxygen supply before doing any damage outside the box, and even if it did burn, the box should contain most of it (as opposed to wood, where it becomes fuel for the fire).

But, I also know jack diddly about reloading and am looking to learn, and not eff up too much, along the way.

They gave a reasoning that it was less chance of a spark to ignite said powder and primers. I am apt to believe them.

 

[bbbass]

Trump most likely.
Possibly Bush?

O'Bummer for sure. Wait, maybe Jimmy Cartah???

 

[GWS]

Question for you:
Were all of the lids that disintegrated made of metal? That might have something to do with why the hodgedon containers were affected but not the others.

Maybe the nitrocellulose reacting with the metal lids?

They were all plastic screw on lids for the plastic bottles which were intact/undamaged.

That's like nothing I've ever seen before. It will be interesting to see what Hodgdon has to say. Did you send them photos? It might be worth sending photos to the container manufacturer also, see if they have any comment. Something strange happened that I'm sure both of those manufacturers would want to be aware of.


Undoubtedly so. It's bizarre that the lids disintegrated, but the powder is intact. You might want to hang onto the powder until you hear back from Hodgdon, in case they want to inspect it somehow. That's unlikely because you can't really ship it to them, just an idea.

Hogdon has so far not deigned to reply to my inquiries

And no, there was no battery on top of the box

I don't know what happened but you should get some kind of award for not burning your house down.

Further proof God really likes me

You couid also just dump it in your garden and use it as fertilizer. Once it gets wet it is no longer active. I have personally got rid of old powder like this

I have already spread a couple pounds of powder on the lawn and garden last week during the rains

 

[edzz]

Did that older reloader happen to mention why they stored in wood? I'd have thought that storing in a thicker metal toolbox would be ideal: less airflow in/out so slower changes in temperature and humidity, if the powder combusts, it'll likely burn out it's oxygen supply before doing any damage outside the box, and even if it did burn, the box should contain most of it (as opposed to wood, where it becomes fuel for the fire).

But, I also know jack diddly about reloading and am looking to learn, and not eff up too much, along the way.

You do not want to store propellants in a container that will contain pressure if exposed to fire and explode like a pressure cooker. Gun powders black or smokeless will not burn out due to lack of oxygen, they provide their own. Approved powder storage containers (and solvent lockers btw) are designed with weak seams or another design feature to allow the release of pressure to prevent additional damage due to the pressure cooker effect. Remember that smokeless powders are propellants and containment to produce explosive forces.

 

[CLT65]

Did that older reloader happen to mention why they stored in wood? I'd have thought that storing in a thicker metal toolbox would be ideal: less airflow in/out so slower changes in temperature and humidity, if the powder combusts, it'll likely burn out it's oxygen supply before doing any damage outside the box, and even if it did burn, the box should contain most of it (as opposed to wood, where it becomes fuel for the fire).

But, I also know jack diddly about reloading and am looking to learn, and not eff up too much, along the way.

Wood is a better insulator than steel, so at floor level in a house fire it's much less likely to combust through heat alone. If it does get hot enough, or burn through, it is more likely to burn rather than explode.

Smokeless propellant burns progressively faster under pressure; it doesn't "explode" like black powder. If it's in a sealed steel container, it will rapidly build pressure and burst the container, the same as in a cartridge case. It doesn't need oxygen to do so. If you made a steel storage container with really thick walls, and it got hot enough in a fire, it would be a big bomb.

I don't know what that powder container is made of, but the old standby is a wooden container with walls 1" thick. Something about this doesn't quite add up to me. I've seen a lot of deteriorated powder before, and this looks different. Usually it takes quite some time, unless it got a lot hotter than you thought. Bad powder usually smells bad and produces nasty, brown gas that will corrode metal. I know it can spontaneously combust, thought I've never seen that personally. In this case it looks like the lids popped off and chemically disintegrated, without enough heat to burn the powder.

As to elevation popping them open, powder is packaged and trucked all over the country every day, at all elevations. Unless there's more to the story somehow, my best guess (like others here) is it got really hot, perhaps enough to cause the powder to deteriorate rapidly and off-gas, and this acidic gas reacted chemically with the lids and paint. That's pure speculation on my part, and I'm not a chemist.

Added- Sorry, didn't mean to repeat what others said; I didn't see the posts until I posted.

 

[Provincial]

If the corroded caps were all made of steel, the symptoms are identical to exposure to fumes of hydrochloric (muriatic) acid. Unless pressurized or cooled, liquid HCL turns into a gas and permeates the air around it.

While there may have been no exposure to HCL in this case, it is informative that the results were the same.

 

[deadeye]

They were all plastic screw on lids for the plastic bottles which were intact/undamaged.

Are you sure the Hodgdon had plastic lids, mine have steel painted lids with foam seals (I checked with a magnet to make sure they weren't aluminum/ but could be cheap stainless as magnet pull wasn't real strong). This is why I would believe the acidity of fumes from degrading powder is the cause.

 

[po18guy]

Have several cans of milsurp IMR8208 that I bought in the mid 70s - it was probably 10-15 years old even then and it's still fine. Kept cool though.

From the Wiki:
"Nitrocellulose was found to gradually decompose, releasing nitric acid and further catalyzing the decomposition (eventually into a flammable powder). Decades later, storage at low temperatures was discovered as a means of delaying these reactions indefinitely."

Nitric acid - there go your steel containers and lids.

 

[RVTECH]

Just a thought but you might want to contact Ballistic Products as well.
With as many who have responded with never having seen anything like this it's possible the container itself was the root of the problem such as the paint or the composition of the metal it is made from and maybe the mfg. has knowledge of it.

 

[Red98422]

Are you sure the Hodgdon had plastic lids, mine have steel painted lids with foam seals (I checked with a magnet to make sure they weren't aluminum/ but could be cheap stainless as magnet pull wasn't real strong). This is why I would believe the acidity of fumes from degrading powder is the cause.

I'm not certain of the OPs lids, but there was a switchover to plastic lids at some point in time with hodgdons powders, as all of mine are plastic.

 

[The Heretic]

Just a thought but you might want to contact Ballistic Products as well.
With as many who have responded with never having seen anything like this it's possible the container itself was the root of the problem such as the paint or the composition of the metal it is made from and maybe the mfg. has knowledge of it.

Paint maybe. The metal itself, I doubt it.

The fact that the lids on only some of the containers were affected would make me look at those first.

The lids on my Trail Boss are plastic.

 

[deadeye]

I'm not certain of the OPs lids, but there was a switchover to plastic lids at some point in time with hodgdons powders, as all of mine are plastic.

Must be recently I haven't seen any in stores the Hodgdon and IMR all had same metal lids.

 

[The Heretic]

Must be recently I haven't seen any in stores the Hodgdon and IMR all had same metal lids.

I bought my Trail Boss July 2016 and it has plastic lids.

 

[deadeye]

I bought my Trail Boss July 2016 and it has plastic lids.

havnt noticed one pounders with plastic lids I'll have to look closer next time I'm at Bimart could just be oldmaneyes syndrome.

 

[The Heretic]

havnt noticed one pounders with plastic lids I'll have to look closer next time I'm at Bimart could just be oldmaneyes syndrome.

At a distance they looked like metal lids, but then I went over and tapped on them

 

[v0lcom13sn0w]

call hodgdon


edit: i finally read that you did contact them, sorry

 

[DizzyJ]

Must be recently I haven't seen any in stores the Hodgdon and IMR all had same metal lids.

My older and some not so old hodgedon and IMR 1lb canisters definitely have metal lids.

The newest Hodgedon lids are plastic. I just looked them over. Got a Winchester 296 that also has a metal lid. All of this powder has been purchased over the last 10 years.

 

[GWS]

Have several cans of milsurp IMR8208 that I bought in the mid 70s - it was probably 10-15 years old even then and it's still fine. Kept cool though.

From the Wiki:
"Nitrocellulose was found to gradually decompose, releasing nitric acid and further catalyzing the decomposition (eventually into a flammable powder). Decades later, storage at low temperatures was discovered as a means of delaying these reactions indefinitely."

Nitric acid - there go your steel containers and lids.

Upon further examination
It may have been steel lids
That would explain why the plastic Alliant lids were intact
The only thing that looked like the remnant of a lid was plastic but that may have been something else but it looked like a lid
It was the right size, round, black etc
Hogdon still hasn't bothered to reply so I guess I may never truly know.

 

[po18guy]

Upon further examination
It may have been steel lids
That would explain why the plastic Alliant lids were intact
The only thing that looked like the remnant of a lid was plastic but that may have been something else but it looked like a lid
It was the right size, round, black etc
Hogdon still hasn't bothered to reply so I guess I may never truly know.

Light up their phone lines. From their site's contact form, they state:

"If you have a safety problem or concern - DO NOT EMAIL - CALL US DIRECTLY 7:00am to 5:30pm Central Monday-Thursday : 913-362-9455"

There ya go. They are normally quite responsive, IME.