Oregon Would FFL License Negate Restrictions in IP43 REDUX?

[arakboss]

Would FFL dealers be unburdened from most of restrictions that were proposed in IP43? Which restrictions would they have still been subject too? For example could FFL holders in Oregon still purchase firearms banned by IP43 and use them for personal use?


Are the feds cracking down on kitchen table FFL holders.? How can low income FFL dealers avoid any discrimination by the feds?

Read More

 

[arakboss]

The main question I have is under IP43 language, if an FFL bought a banned firearm could that FFL use the firearm in the state or would the only options be to transfer it out of state or to LEOs or other exempt persons?

Here is where my thinking is on this idea. If the super majority takes it in to their own hands to enact IP43 type restrictions or an IP43 style initiative is resurrected and becomes law, wouldn't a person with an FFL license be in much better shape to continue purchasing and transferring whatever types of firearms are banned from further sales or transfers. My understanding of IP43 was that FFL's were still able to purchase and transfer firearms under the ban.

 

[Camelfilter]

Does the ATF have rules & regulations that dictate State law as a blanket coverage? ie if x y or z is not legal in State W, then by default an FFL dealer in State W cannot transact in x y or z??

No idea, just pondering...

 

[arakboss]

Does the ATF have rules & regulations that dictate State law as a blanket coverage? ie if x y or z is not legal in State W, then by default an FFL dealer in State W cannot transact in x y or z??

No idea, just pondering...

Hopefully some FFL members will chime in on this topic. I was wondering why IP43 gave FFLs a break in their ban. I assumed it was because it would be too over the top not allowing people some last ditch option to be able to sell a banned firearm. But then I wondered if there was some sort of federal preemption that covered FFLs in all states. Not sure?

 

[CountryGent]

IP-43, in addition to being totally unconstitutional, was very poorly written. There was language, however, about transferring the items to an FFL. It was one of several options given (turn them in for nothing, register them, sell them out of state, etc.). So, presumably, an FFL could have said items in their inventory, for sale to law enforcement agencies and buyers in another state.

Note you cannot have an 01FFL only to enhance your personal collection. It is right there on the application form. The license is for actually dealing in firearms.

I honestly don't know if they are "cracking down on kitchen table FFL holders", though I strongly suspect that the notion is Internet BS, because there is nothing in the law prohibiting home-based operations. If there is a zoning issue (residential, commercial or otherwise) they won't approve the application though.

For whatever it is worth, I applied for, and was granted, an 01FFL dealers license this past summer. The license address is the commercial building where I handle most business operations. The entire process, from mailing it off, to receiving the license was about three months. The ATF portion was pretty smooth and the person I worked with at the Portland office was professional and helpful. I can't say the same for the local and state parts of it, but compared to other governmental bullplop I've dealt with in the business world, it was nothing. The one that took a surprising amount of leg-work was getting the local USPS to understand their own regulations concerning shipping/receiving firearms as a dealer licensee.

Good luck.

 

[arakboss]

IP-43, in addition to being totally unconstitutional, was very poorly written. There was language, however, about transferring the items to an FFL. It was one of several options given (turn them in for nothing, register them, sell them out of state, etc.). So, presumably, an FFL could have said items in their inventory, for sale to law enforcement agencies and buyers in another state.

Note you cannot have an 01FFL only to enhance your personal collection. It is right there on the application form. The license is for actually dealing in firearms.

I honestly don't know if they are "cracking down on kitchen table FFL holders", though I strongly suspect that the notion is Internet BS, because there is nothing in the law prohibiting home-based operations. If there is a zoning issue (residential, commercial or otherwise) they won't approve the application though.

For whatever it is worth, I applied for, and was granted, an 01FFL dealers license this past summer. The license address is the commercial building where I handle most business operations. The entire process, from mailing it off, to receiving the license was about three months. The ATF portion was pretty smooth and the person I worked with at the Portland office was professional and helpful. I can't say the same for the local and state parts of it, but compared to other governmental bullplop I've dealt with in the business world, it was nothing.

Good luck.

I have heard it's not as difficult or onerous as some make it out to be. I realize that you are suppose to use the FFL for business but that some personal use is allowed. You (and other FFL's) would have big relief if IP43 type restrictions come about here. Here are some areas where FFL's should have an advantage:

Imagine the amount of registrations that would need to be completed, these could overwhelm current FFL's. FFL's could pay some bills from income on these registrations if the current style of FFL transfer system is used to complete registrations.

The local prices of banned firearms would likely tank at some point when 99% of the local buyers are legislated out of the market.

FFL's would still be able to purchase banned firearms and transfer to other FFLs (unknown if this would be allowed for FFL's personal use firearms?)

This is on top of the standard benefits that are available now.

I would like to see many more FFL dealers approved in this state. As a consumer I don't see a downside to having more FFL dealers here and that goes for now or under a ban.

 

[wired]

The ATF has never "cracked down " on kitchen table dealers. You follow your local zoning and state and federal paperwork requirements and the ATF has always been easy to deal with.

 

[arakboss]

The ATF has never "cracked down " on kitchen table dealers. You follow your local zoning and state and federal paperwork requirements and the ATF has always been easy to deal with.

If we are moving in to a period of heavier restrictions on firearms (we are) can you see any solid reason why an eligible person would not want to use this route as a way to make a few extra bucks and secure more of their firearm freedoms?

 

[arakboss]

The ATF has never "cracked down " on kitchen table dealers. You follow your local zoning and state and federal paperwork requirements and the ATF has always been easy to deal with.

I think they eliminated "by appt only" option for business hours and some people believe that was an attempt to weed out kitchen table dealers. Also something to do with dealers who only wanted to sell at gunshows.

 

[wired]

Yes, as a functioning business you must maintain business hours and you must have a physical address that you sell from even if you also sell at gun shows. . There are requirements that must be met to hold an FFL. They have stated for 30 years that you couldnt just sell at gun shows.

My county does not allow home based FFL's at least in city limits and I had to give up my licenses years ago when I moved here. Thats on local zoning not the ATF.

 

[arakboss]

Yes, as a functioning business you must maintain business hours and you must have a physical address that you sell from even if you also sell at gun shows. . There are requirements that must be met to hold an FFL. They have stated for 30 years that you couldnt just sell at gun shows.

My county does not allow home based FFL's at least in city limits and I had to give up my licenses years ago when I moved here. Thats on local zoning not the ATF.

Would you recommend eligble persons get their FFL in todays environment? Would an FFL provide relief from gun restrictions as I have suggested?

Edit: Do you see a downside for the consumer in having a bunch more FFLs in Oregon.

 

[wired]

The more FFL's the merrier I always say. Make it seem like your'e running a business and the ATF could care less.

How state law affects any of that I dont know. Depends on the wording. They could always do like Yakima does and flat out ban home FFL's. Never had any problem getting a home FFL even 02/07 SOT in King County. Out here in Republican land I cant get an FFL. What the hell?

 

[arakboss]

The more FFL's the merrier I always say. Make it seem like your'e running a business and the ATF could care less.

How state law affects any of that I dont know. Depends on the wording. They could always do like Yakima does and flat out ban home FFL's. Never had any problem getting a home FFL even 02/07 SOT in King County. Out here in Republican land I cant get an FFL. What the hell?

That's nuts do you know where Yakima ban on home FFLs originated from and how long that ban has been in effect?

 

[wired]

It's not just FFL's. When we first moved here I applied for the required business license , state license, EIN , corp docs etc to re-up my 02/07. Got shot down by the city. Yakima County planning has a policy against not only home FFL's but home businesses in general . Ive lived all over the country and in several Washington and Oregon counties. I have never seen such a strict city planning dept. Inspectors out the ying yang, permits for everything. Seriously no home businesses that there is even a chance of public hours.

 

[arakboss]

It's not just FFL's. When we first moved here I applied for the required business license , state license, EIN , corp docs etc to re-up my 02/07. Got shot down by the city. Yakima County planning has a policy against not only home FFL's but home businesses in general . Ive lived all over the country and in several Washington and Oregon counties. I have never seen such a strict city planning dept. Inspectors out the ying yang, permits for everything. Seriously no home businesses that there is even a chance of public hours.

That's interesting. Thanks for the info.

 

[justcuz]

You are mixing State mandates with Federal commerce [ATF].

the ATF's dealer app asks if you are in it to 'sell' of course you are! The ATF agent's main purpose for initial visit is 1) orientation to regs; 2) verify facilities have appropriate storage; 3) and the new FFL is intending to sell and have adequate parking, facilities, etc.

[ps, by appointment statement on the app & chg in business form is still viable option for FFLs.]

Further, firearms brought into your FFL sphere of control must be entered in the A/D bound book and may be used by the FFL for training and personal use...as long as there is an annotation in the A/D bound book showing location of the article - each time!]

Additionally, an FFL may after a period of time [not specifically specified but say after a year] log out a firearm out of their FFL A/D bound book into their 'personal' possession.

[sidebar...remember never, nada, do not mix FFL inventory with personal firearms!]

The state level initiative mandates is something the ATF doesn't give a rat's derrière about whatsoever! That stated, remember as a dealer you have a worst situation screwing with local/state officials who can revoke your business/tax/zoning/LE permissions or initiate inspections, legal or not, on a whim!

A clarification...when I mentioned FFL i specifically mean the entity known as the 'responsible person' period, not a friend, relative, employee may use inventory for training/personal/etc use.

 

[arakboss]

You are mixing State mandates with Federal commerce [ATF].

the ATF's dealer app asks if you are in it to 'sell' of course you are! The ATF agent's main purpose for initial visit is 1) orientation to regs; 2) verify facilities have appropriate storage; 3) and the new FFL is intending to sell and have adequate parking, facilities, etc.

[ps, by appointment statement on the app & chg in business form is still viable option for FFLs.]

Further, firearms brought into your FFL sphere of control must be entered in the A/D bound book and may be used by the FFL for training and personal use...as long as there is an annotation in the A/D bound book showing location of the article - each time!]

Additionally, an FFL may after a period of time [not specifically specified but say after a year] log out a firearm out of their FFL A/D bound book into their 'personal' possession.

[sidebar...remember never, nada, do not mix FFL inventory with personal firearms!]

The state level initiative mandates is something the ATF doesn't give a rat's derrière about whatsoever! That stated, remember as a dealer you have a worst situation screwing with local/state officials who can revoke your business/tax/zoning/LE permissions or initiate inspections, legal or not, on a whim!

Thank you for the info. I was thinking under IP43 type restrictions in Oregon, having an FFL would still allow a person to purchase and use a banned firearm. Based on what you stated here "Further, firearms brought into your FFL sphere of control must be entered in the A/D bound book and may be used by the FFL for training and personal use...as long as there is an annotation in the A/D bound book showing location of the article - each time!" it seems like my assumption is correct.

 

[justcuz]

Arakboss, be careful, again those are FEDERAL guidelines you are discussing and you are attempting to circumvent STATE mandates on a very high profile public forum platform and as mentioned the State/Local level folks do not play fair.

For example, dealer app is approved by the highest LE in the community and if word got out there is someone flaunting & circumventing the pet project of this LE or state/local official, all they have to do is make a fone call to ATF, building zoning, taxation, etc., revoking their permission for you to be approved.

They will not even use lub as they have cardinal knowledge with you nor will you even be tried by your peers in a court of law! Further, who can you civily sue and over what issue?

 

[arakboss]

Arakboss, be careful, again those are FEDERAL guidelines you are discussing and you are attempting to circumvent STATE mandates on a very high profile public forum platform and as mentioned the State/Local level folks do not play fair.

For example, dealer app is approved by the highest LE in the community and if word got out there is someone flaunting & circumventing the pet project of this LE or state/local official, all they have to do is make a fone call to ATF, building zoning, taxation, etc., revoking their permission for you to be approved.

They will not even use lub as they have cardinal knowledge with you nor will you even be tried by your peers in a court of law! Further, who can you civily sue and over what issue?

I hear you, but I don't think an FFL would be circumventing or exploiting a loophole under for example the IP43 initiative since they explicity exempted FFLs from most of the restrictions in the initiative itself. I could see further restrictions on where, when and how FFLs are allowed to operate introduced by state and local governments and that is likely on the way. Regardless, I would really like to see a massive expansion of FFL's in this state. Consumers will benefit from that with or without bans.
Edit: I would also like to see the feds loosen up on out of state transfers. It should be allowed for any nonprohibited resident of any state in any state and for handguns as well.

 

[justcuz]

I hear you, but I don't think an FFL would be circumventing or exploiting a loophole under for example the IP43 initiative since they explicity exempted FFLs from most of the restrictions in the initiative itself. I could see further restrictions on where, when and how FFLs are allowed to operate introduced by state and local governments and that is likely on the way. Regardless, I would really like to see a massive expansion of FFL's in this state. Consumers will benefit from that with or without bans.
Edit: I would also like to see the feds loosen up on out of state transfers. It should be allowed for any nonprohibited resident of any state in any state and for handguns as well.

sorry, do not miss the point...at the moment FFLs are exempt, single pen stoke of the Gov on an EO, and FFLs are not exempt.

Wishing would of, could of, doesn't make it happen...glance over here to WA and see how your wish of more FFLs has resulted in crippling legislative curbs on business practices in terms of tariffs or taxes or loss of business in specific counties along the megalopolis on the west coast of the state.