Wolves in the crosshairs

[156256Hunter]

It's obvious you don't know much about ranching...

And it seems he's misinformed about predation and elk numbers, for example in E. Oregon. Elk numbers in many units were already lower than management objectives before wolves showed up (some people on this forum will argue that bears don't eat calf elk, but that's misinformed). Now with wolves there are even fewer elk. I've been hunting elk in NE Oregon for almost 23 years, and it gets worse very year. It's bad when you see a herd of 50 elk (when it should have been 100), and of the 50, only a few calves. Maybe one spike bull per 50 or 75 elk (which is what a lot of the tags are now restricted to).

Fewer elk in turn means less revenue for ODFW because fewer people will apply for and buy elk tags. So then ODFW may have to again raise license, application, and tag prices for whoever does still hunt. At some point, maybe ODFW and USFS will have to start charging fees to people in Portland who want to go camp out with the wolves in E. Oregon. Oh wait, most of them have never gone to E. Oregon. But they've seen it on a map, and they've seen wolves on YouTube.

 

[Jamie6.5]

Im going to keep asking this question, I want to know from those that oppose wolf reintroduction what their plan is to keep wolves from extinction?

They are in no way under threat of extinction. There are thousands of them north of the border. The wolves they brought down from Canada for re-intro here were from areas where it's legal to shoot them on sight under Canadian law. They are a nuisance and a threat to game populations as well as livestock up there.

The claims of threat of extinction are overblown hyperbole based on a scenario being pushed by American wolf advocates.
Unless of course you think a line on a map defines whether or not a species is "extinct within it's natural range."
Their "natural range" is in Canada. Hundreds if not thousands of miles north of where they've been transplanted.

True extinction means there are no more. As long as there's Caribou, deer, elk and Canadian sheep and cattle to eat, the likelihood of that happening is at best remote, and at worst an impossibility.

 

[Koda]

for what its worth, Ive been big game hunting in Oregon for over 30 years and the decline in deer and elk started long befor the first wolf wandered over from Idaho in 99, then the second in 2009 that stayed and established wolves we have today. Even with our current wolf population there are not enough to have an overall impact on ungulate populations...
whatever has led to any decline in ungulates in Oregon wolves are not part of it.

 

[Goosebrown]

Im going to keep asking this question, I want to know from those that oppose wolf reintroduction what their plan is to keep wolves from extinction?

I have none. I don't give a poop if they survive or not. If they do, great. If not, that's fine too. Apex predators are interesting but in conflict with man I go for man 100% of the time.

 

[Koda]

Their "natural range" is in Canada. Hundreds if not thousands of miles

the last indiginous Oregon wolf was killed in 1947 near Crater Lake. Every literature out there shows Oregon as original wolf country, well inside any virtual line drawn on a map.

Are you suggesting that wolves are not indiginous to Oregon, or that they should be limited to just Canada territories?


(and I know this is a heated topic but Im just asking to learn not critisize.)

 

[Jamie6.5]

the last indiginous Oregon wolf was killed in 1947 near Crater Lake. Every literature out there shows Oregon as original wolf country, well inside any virtual line drawn on a map.

Are you suggesting that wolves are not indiginous to Oregon, or that they should be limited to just Canada territories?


(and I know this is a heated topic but Im just asking to learn not critisize.)

So what defines "extinction" if you can take an animal out of its natural habitat and transplant it somewhere else, and then claim it's a viable replacement for the species that died out?
A species is considered functionally extinct when its numbers are too few to propagate or re-establish a viable population. It is considered absolutely extinct after the last remaining example of it dies.

So it matters not how many Canadian Gray wolves we kill in the lower 48, the species will remain viable as long as there are Canadian Gray wolves in Canada.

Yes, the species of wolf that inhabited Oregon in past centuries is extinct. Some consider that regrettable. And yes it bore some resemblance to, and probably shared a considerable percentage of DNA with the Canadian Gray wolf. But they weren't identical. They were not the same animal.
But the wolves here now via re-introduction are identical in DNA to the Canadian Gray wolf. They are not the same species as was here before.
Hence my assertion that they'll never be extinct as long as they remain viable as a species on the other side of that virtual line.
Anything else you've read is pure hogwash.

 

[156256Hunter]

for what its worth, Ive been big game hunting in Oregon for over 30 years and the decline in deer and elk started long befor the first wolf wandered over from Idaho in 99, then the second in 2009 that stayed and established wolves we have today. Even with our current wolf population there are not enough to have an overall impact on ungulate populations...
whatever has led to any decline in ungulates in Oregon wolves are not part of it.

In NE Oregon decline in elk populations started in the late 90s after hunting bears and cougars with dogs was banned. Predator populations increased, elk populations declined.

So if you already had declining elk populations, and then added another predator to the mix that sometimes kills for sport, I'm not buying that elk populations didn't decline more quickly.

And I'll eat my hat if there were only two wolves in Oregon by 2009. If that were the case, then I guess I was super lucky during the early 2000s when I'd happen across a set of wolf tracks in the NE Oregon snow and dirt, apparently left by only one wolf in the entire state.

 

[Koda]

In NE Oregon decline in elk populations started in the late 90s after hunting bears and cougars with dogs was banned. Predator populations increased, elk populations declined.

So if you already had declining elk populations, and then added another predator to the mix that sometimes kills for sport, I'm not buying that elk populations didn't decline more quickly.

And I'll eat my hat if there were only two wolves in Oregon by 2009. If that were the case, then I guess I was super lucky during the early 2000s when I'd happen across a set of wolf tracks in the NE Oregon snow and dirt, apparently left by only one wolf in the entire state.

thats a good point, back then there was only 1 confirmed wolf there is no reason why it would be the only one. However I would still suggest that their numbers werent significant enough to have a measurable effect on deer and elk herds we know they were already on the decline...

 

[maddog]

So what defines "extinction" if you can take an animal out of its natural habitat and transplant it somewhere else, and then claim it's a viable replacement for the species that died out?
A species is considered functionally extinct when its numbers are too few to propagate or re-establish a viable population. It is considered absolutely extinct after the last remaining example of it dies.

So it matters not how many Canadian Gray wolves we kill in the lower 48, the species will remain viable as long as there are Canadian Gray wolves in Canada.

Yes, the species of wolf that inhabited Oregon in past centuries is extinct. Some consider that regrettable. And yes it bore some resemblance to, and probably shared a considerable percentage of DNA with the Canadian Gray wolf. But they weren't identical. They were not the same animal.
But the wolves here now via re-introduction are identical in DNA to the Canadian Gray wolf. They are not the same species as was here before.
Hence my assertion that they'll never be extinct as long as they remain viable as a species on the other side of that virtual line.
Anything else you've read is pure hogwash.

Do you have any sources to substantiate your hypothesis?

 

[Koda]

So what defines "extinction" if you can take an animal out of its natural habitat and transplant it somewhere else, and then claim it's a viable replacement for the species that died out?
A species is considered functionally extinct when its numbers are too few to propagate or re-establish a viable population. It is considered absolutely extinct after the last remaining example of it dies.

So it matters not how many Canadian Gray wolves we kill in the lower 48, the species will remain viable as long as there are Canadian Gray wolves in Canada.

Yes, the species of wolf that inhabited Oregon in past centuries is extinct. Some consider that regrettable. And yes it bore some resemblance to, and probably shared a considerable percentage of DNA with the Canadian Gray wolf. But they weren't identical. They were not the same animal.
But the wolves here now via re-introduction are identical in DNA to the Canadian Gray wolf. They are not the same species as was here before.
Hence my assertion that they'll never be extinct as long as they remain viable as a species on the other side of that virtual line.
Anything else you've read is pure hogwash.

thats a fair reply but my only concern is it seems impossible to confirm any demarcation between the individual species. I cant find anything on the "canadian grey wolf" but both the grey wolf and northwestern wolf show both their historical range well established in Oregon. I cant find info on any official species simply called just "timberwolf" which if I understand correct is what were saying were indiginous to Oregon and now extinct....

 

[pokerace]

Then there is the ol double standard which one should be regulated and which one left alone One is an invasive species that man has "helped" feed with commercial fishing inside the river, the other has always been here doing what it does, and man has again made it easy for them to feed! One is causing a very large impact on the environment, the other is not nor has it ever, but which one should we deal a final solution?

This wolf (gray wolf} is an invasive species. It is not a NATIVE OF Oregon.

 

[pokerace]

A herd of sheep all with snapped necks but not eaten doesn't sound like normal wolf behavior. How do you know it was wolves? (I'm no wolf expert... Just wondering.)

THE OREGON GAME DEPT. SAID IT WAS...

Go to there web site and look it up.

 

[Jamie6.5]

Do you have any sources to substantiate your hypothesis?

My hypothesis about what? The definition of extinct? Or the fact that Gray wolves are plentiful in Canada?
That's all that matters. Koda wanted to know what will keep these current wolves from going extinct. And that's an easy one,...
We're not the source. We're not hunting them north of the border. As long as they're viable in the place where we got these, we can always go get more.

What's so damned difficult to understand about that?
You posted links to explanations of the re-introduction program. Did you not read those links yourself?
They state plainly and clearly that the wolves released in Idaho came from Alberta Canada.

 

[Jamie6.5]

Here's how Alberta Canada wildlife managers think about the Gray Wolf and their numbers:
Wolves - Alberta Wilderness Association

Gray Wolf numbers worldwide:
List of gray wolf populations by country - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

North America

Canada has over 60,000 wolves, which are legally considered a big game species, though they are afforded protection in 3% of Canada's territory. The Northwest Territories, Nunavut and Yukon have 5,000 wolves each, British Columbia has 8,500 wolves,[55] Alberta 4,200, Saskatchewan 4,300, Manitoba 4,000-6,000, Ontario 9,000, Quebec 5,000 and Labrador 2,000. Canada currently has no livestock damage compensation programmes.[4] In the fall of 2012, the government of British Columbia was considering a cull of the wolf population in some areas.[55] In the winter of 2015 the government of British Columbia began undertaking a cull of up to 184 wolves in an effort to combat dwindling caribou populations in the South Selkirk Mountains and the South Peace region. The cull, like ones before it, is opposed by some environmental groups.[56]

With numbers in excess of 60,000, Canada isn't in danger of driving the gray wolf to extinction any time soon.

 

[PaulB47]

I get that you're an anarchy advocate and all

Uh, advocating people be thrown in jail for shooting wolves on their property ain't exactly anarchy.

 

[maddog]

And yes it bore some resemblance to, and probably shared a considerable percentage of DNA with the Canadian Gray wolf. But they weren't identical. They were not the same animal.

I was referring to this statement. My grandson was sitting on my lap and I shot my post off too quickly. My intent was to build the informational base of this thread so readers can compare some type of "close to" empirical evidence. What I can research shows Oregon very much in the Gray Wolf range Wolves Come Home to Oregon | Oregon Wild and Habitat - Gray Wolf.

I'm not disputing the wolves came from Canada, they certainly did, I'm questioning your assumption those eradicated long ago did not.

 

[Jamie6.5]

I was referring to this statement. My grandson was sitting on my lap and I shot my post off too quickly. My intent was to build the informational base of this thread so readers can compare some type of "close to" empirical evidence. What I can research shows Oregon very much in the Gray Wolf range Wolves Come Home to Oregon | Oregon Wild and Habitat - Gray Wolf.

And the wolf you said was driven extinct in the 1940s near Crater Lake was the Cascade wolf, or Canis lupus fuscus a subspecies of the Gray Wolf:
Cascade mountain wolf - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Canis Lupus Occidentalis is the species that inhabits Alberta and is the largest of the Gray wolves in N. America. Now re-named the Northwestern wolf since its re-introduction to Yellowstone and the Salmon River Gorge of Idaho.

Like I said before, there's virtually no chance of driving this wolf to extinction. It's brethren are plentiful in the same place these were acquired.

 

[Jamie6.5]

I was referring to this statement. My grandson was sitting on my lap and I shot my post off too quickly. My intent was to build the informational base of this thread so readers can compare some type of "close to" empirical evidence. What I can research shows Oregon very much in the Gray Wolf range Wolves Come Home to Oregon | Oregon Wild and Habitat - Gray Wolf.

I'm not disputing the wolves came from Canada, they certainly did, I'm questioning your assumption those eradicated long ago did not.

You might try getting at least some of your info and references from somewhere other that wolf advocacy groups like OregonWild.
Those people never met a predator they didn't like.
Most of the organizers and donors are anti-hunting.

If you want to go far enough back, all wolves came from the same place. Across the Bering land bridge from Eurasia.
But repeatedly you'll see wolf advocacy groups refer to wolves as Canis Lupus leaving off the subspecies title. Like Occidentalis for example.
Yeah, they're all Canis Lupus, but it doesn't end there. They know that, and they exploit that in their description(s).

 

[Koda]

And the wolf you said was driven extinct in the 1940s near Crater Lake was the Cascade wolf, or Canis lupus fuscus a subspecies of the Gray Wolf:
Cascade mountain wolf - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Canis Lupus Occidentalis is the species that inhabits Alberta and is the largest of the Gray wolves in N. America. Now re-named the Northwestern wolf since its re-introduction to Yellowstone and the Salmon River Gorge of Idaho.

Like I said before, there's virtually no chance of driving this wolf to extinction. It's brethren are plentiful in the same place these were acquired.

referring to the Cascade mountain wolf wiki link, what species were the "other wolves in the area"?

 

[maddog]

And Sir John Richardson, in 1829, has the Northwestern Wolf established as far south as Oregon's border with California Northwestern wolf - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia His attributed range is in green in the picture on the right of the page.

But we're moving off on a tangent.