Why so much focus on tourniquets over hemostatic agents?

[Bushman]

The TQ only stops bleeding when the limbs are affected. Certainly useful to have for that, but doesn't do anything for when the torso is affected. Celox would be useful for most limb and torso wounds such as knife and gun shot wounds while the TQ has limited applications. Where the TQ does excel is when your arm or leg is severed.

I'm not saying a TQ is useless. I'm saying hemostatic agents have more use cases than a TQ and if I had to carry one or the other due to constraints in how much stuff I can carry for say, EDC, I'd choose a hemostatic agent.

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[cigars]

Carry both, it's not that hard.

 

[Bushman]

Carry both, it's not that hard.

I specifically addressed this in my post....did you read the actual body of the post or just the title??

 

[BrandonQuixote]

Have you ever tried to clean those out of wounds? Its atrocious. You're right about limbs though. Thats why you pack junctions, TQ libs and apply pressure to the core/trunk. Seasoning someone's wound with celox isn't going to stop deep hemorrhages. You need to physically occlude blood flow, especially high pressure, high volume arterial flow. A GOOD Tq is the best way to do that on a limb- regardless if its been severed or not. Celox is not going to magically stop a bleed, it just accelerates clotting. It's probably the least effective blood-loss stopping tool.

Please, If you ever come to my aid with a pizza-pepper sized bag of celox and a belt or RATS TQ, just let me bleed out. Id rather you try to cram half a box of tampons in me.

 

[CamoDeafie]

Hmmm. Pressure bandages, like field dressings or Israeli Bandages... gauze, ace wraps, tape... and TQs. Far more useful than just hemostatic agents

Edit. Oh and a single field dressing fit an ALICE compass pouch, so its not a large item.

 

[Bushman]

Have you ever tried to clean those out of wounds? Its atrocious. You're right about limbs though. Thats why you pack junctions, TQ libs and apply pressure to the core/trunk. Seasoning someone's wound with celox isn't going to stop deep hemorrhages. You need to physically occlude blood flow, especially high pressure, high volume arterial flow. A GOOD Tq is the best way to do that on a limb- regardless if its been severed or not. Celox is not going to magically stop a bleed, it just accelerates clotting. It's probably the least effective blood-loss stopping tool.

Please, If you ever come to my aid with a pizza-pepper sized bag of celox and a belt or RATS TQ, just let me bleed out. Id rather you try to cram half a box of tampons in me.

That's what I said above, that a TQ is best on a limb, ESPECIALLY when it's severed, but the point is a TQ isn't going to stop you bleeding from your torso. Sure quick clot etc. won't stop a deep hemorrhage on the torso unless packed in there well, but a TQ will do what exactly in that situation? Nothing...

 

[CamoDeafie]

Who do you know carries just one or other???? Every person whose kit I've seen, had TQs plus a combination of pressure bandages, plain gauze, combat gauze(the celox infused ones), regular bandages, and other assorted stuff...

 

[BrandonQuixote]

That's what I said above, that a TQ is best on a limb, ESPECIALLY when it's severed, but the point is a TQ isn't going to stop you bleeding from your torso. Sure quick clot etc. won't stop a deep hemorrhage on the torso unless packed in there well, but a TQ will do what exactly in that situation? Nothing...

Well to focus on your original question- hemostatic powder BS is good for nearly nothing (unless it's in a bandage and even then the bandage is the most effective part). At least a TQ can stop limb hemorrhages effectively on it own, obviously it can't solve everything. A staggering number of people are killed from peripheral blood loss from injuries, motorcycle accidents, car accidents, tool and machinery accidents. The focus would be based on how many situations a TQ can save a life with quick and correct application, ounce for ounce, inch for inch, dollar for dollar it's the most effective life saving piece of kit you can carry in a back pocket. There are large "junctional tourniquets"- I can't speak to the effectiveness of those but the carrying and application might be beyond the EDC realm.

 

[cigars]

I specifically addressed this in my post....did you read the actual body of the post or just the title??

Tourniquets are quite tacti-cool these days. I think that you're going in a direction that most/many people don't have a background in. Maybe you should be more specific as to your reasoning, perhaps cite some sources or instructional links. Your premise has people wondering if they should carry one or the other. You seem to be well versed on the topic but your message is blurred.

 

[Camelfilter]

If given the option of carrying ONLY one or the other? Tourniquet.

If you (or another) NEEDS one, you need it NOW.

They can be improvised, and reasonably easily. Again tho time is the issue, so if you are the injured party, now you may lack use of a limb to improvise quickly and effectively.

Severed arteries in an arm or leg can lead to unconsciousness in as little as less than 30 seconds, death within a few minutes.

 

[TTSX]

Tourniquets are the very best for head wounds

 

[BrandonQuixote]

If given the option of carrying ONLY one or the other? Tourniquet.

If you (or another) NEEDS one, you need it NOW.

They can be improvised, and reasonably easily. Again tho time is the issue, so if you are the injured party, now you may lack use of a limb to improvise quickly and effectively.

Severed arteries in an arm or leg can lead to unconsciousness in as little as less than 30 seconds, death within a few minutes.

Improvised TQ's can not equally distribute pressure and fatigue/lose clamping force and if by some miracle they are effective at stopping the blood loss, they often cause severe nerve damage/neuropathy. A belt, sock, torn shirt or anything else is not a viable TQ. The occlusive ability is simply not there. For $30 you can have a tool that can 100% stop limb blood flow, There's almost no reason to not have half a dozen and one in your pocket.

 

[Camelfilter]

Improvised TQ's can not equally distribute pressure and fatigue/lose clamping force and if by some miracle they are effective at stopping the blood loss, they often cause severe nerve damage/neuropathy. A belt, sock, torn shirt or anything else is not a viable TQ. The occlusive ability is simply not there.

I agree.

 

[Savage Jav]

The TQ only stops bleeding when the limbs are affected. Certainly useful to have for that, but doesn't do anything for when the torso is affected. Celox would be useful for most limb and torso wounds such as knife and gun shot wounds while the TQ has limited applications. Where the TQ does excel is when your arm or leg is severed.

I'm not saying a TQ is useless. I'm saying hemostatic agents have more use cases than a TQ and if I had to carry one or the other due to constraints in how much stuff I can carry for say, EDC, I'd choose a hemostatic agent.

The heavy emphasis on TQs is largely because of military doctrine. It was discovered that massive hemorrhage of a limb is the most common trauma injury that can most easily be treated on the battlefield. It is something every solider can easily do and with limited education and time can save a life. Limbs are what are often effected as soldier have body armor that protect their chest, torso, exc.

The second part is a bit more logistical. It takes a bit more effort for us whiskeys to teach the grunts how to pack a neck, axillary and inguinal wound as supplies can be limited outside of training (depends on unit). It requires more hands on training which sometimes don't have (its no excuses just simply a reality).

However its very important to know how to treat both wounds as one is not more important than another. Massive hemorrhage will kill you in under a minute if untreated. Keep the red stuff in the body as fast as possible is key.

Also just my personal opinion if you can get Combat gauze instead of Celox that would be much better. Celox is a powder and a mess to work with as you need to try and whip away blood as it continues to pour out, blow away in the wind and is a nightmare for surgeons after. You can also cause a stroke as a bit can break off and enter the blood stream (yes id rather save the patients life now and worry about a stroke later but it would be good practice to prepare beforehand).

@Bushman If you need any Combat Gauze let me know, i'm a medic and have access to some. I get back in November.

 

[Savage Jav]

@Bushman and your correct Combat Gauze and regular is more useful if you have the knowledge of how to use it. But I personally would carry a few tourniquets before I start thinking about gauze (If i had to choose one) as the likelihood of a limb injury is greater in a combat/active shooter scenario.

 

[Savage Jav]

Have you ever tried to clean those out of wounds? Its atrocious. You're right about limbs though. Thats why you pack junctions, TQ libs and apply pressure to the core/trunk. Seasoning someone's wound with celox isn't going to stop deep hemorrhages. You need to physically occlude blood flow, especially high pressure, high volume arterial flow. A GOOD Tq is the best way to do that on a limb- regardless if its been severed or not. Celox is not going to magically stop a bleed, it just accelerates clotting. It's probably the least effective blood-loss stopping tool.

Please, If you ever come to my aid with a pizza-pepper sized bag of celox and a belt or RATS TQ, just let me bleed out. Id rather you try to cram half a box of tampons in me.

Hahaha mention rats TQs or tampons when talking trauma makes my PA freak out and rightly so.

 

[91A PE]

Well to focus on your original question- hemostatic powder BS is good for nearly nothing (unless it's in a bandage and even then the bandage is the most effective part). At least a TQ can stop limb hemorrhages effectively on it own, obviously it can't solve everything. A staggering number of people are killed from peripheral blood loss from injuries, motorcycle accidents, car accidents, tool and machinery accidents. The focus would be based on how many situations a TQ can save a life with quick and correct application, ounce for ounce, inch for inch, dollar for dollar it's the most effective life saving piece of kit you can carry in a back pocket. There are large "junctional tourniquets"- I can't speak to the effectiveness of those but the carrying and application might be beyond the EDC realm.

Read a few articles a couple months ago where trauma docs were crunching numbers and found that the widespread use of body armor was reducing the numbers of upper and mid torso injuries. The numbers were shifting instead to abdominal, pelvic, and extremity injuries. The docs were commenting on the increased importance of junctional tourniquets. There are a handful of junctional tourniquets on the market. As you say, not sure I want that in my EDC bag.

 

[Savage Jav]

Read a few articles a couple months ago where trauma docs were crunching numbers and found that the widespread use of body armor was reducing the numbers of upper and mid torso injuries. The numbers were shifting instead to abdominal, pelvic, and extremity injuries. The docs were commenting on the increased importance of junctional tourniquets. There are a handful of junctional tourniquets on the market. As you say, not sure I want that in my EDC bag.

The problem is that the Junctional TQs on the market are slow to apply and tedious. Both bad things when bleeding from the femoral artery.

I've found the best way to treat a junctional wound is to drop a knee on the artery or front leaning rest for pressure on the wound (your buddy can also push on your shoulders to apply more pressure if needed). Pressure and combat gauze is the most expended way currently to treat neck, axillary or inguinal wounds.

 

[CamoDeafie]

On the subject of tourniquets... I have here an old USMC Tourni-Kwik TK4. I see online that these can be had for very low prices. And looking at the video of how its used; I wonder if its worth having as backup to the current popular CAT types? I received this along with some parts of an USMC IFAK. Which I have replenished with new supplies except the tourniquets

 

[Dungannon]

One of the donations for the NWFA raffle this fall