Why so much focus on tourniquets over hemostatic agents?

[Savage Jav]

On the subject of tourniquets... I have here an old USMC Tourni-Kwik TK4. I see online that these can be had for very low prices. And looking at the video of how its used; I wonder if its worth having as backup to the current popular CAT types? I received this along with some parts of an USMC IFAK. Which I have replenished with new supplies except the tourniquets

It'll work if its not frayed or dried out. I would recommend buying or trading for more CAT or SOFTT-W, they are relatively inexpensive will last you a long time if they are not exposed to sun or the elements but understand money is tight right now for many of us.

 

[Savage Jav]

One of the donations for the NWFA raffle this fall

View attachment 757733

Who can i contact to give medical supplies to the raffle? I didn't know this was a thing ad its the least I can do to give back, I use the forum quite a bit.

 

[CamoDeafie]

It'll work if its not frayed or dried out. I would recommend buying or trading for more CAT or SOFTT-W, they are relatively inexpensive will last you a long time if they are not exposed to sun or the elements but understand money is tight right now for many of us.

Yeah, its still sealed in its package and hasn't seen much daylight (usually packed into a plastic FAK insert)

 

[Savage Jav]

Yeah, its still sealed in its package and hasn't seen much daylight (usually packed into a plastic FAK insert)

Most TQ I have out of the wrapper for quick access but as a back up that should be fine.

 

[EHJ]

If I could only pick one - and my kit was just for my personal use - I'd go tourniquet over clotter.
I've not been shot before, but I have been snake bit by a rattler in John Day miles from nowhere.
If not for my shoe laces I know I'd of been much worse off.

 

[Dungannon]

Who can i contact to give medical supplies to the raffle? I didn't know this was a thing ad its the least I can do to give back, I use the forum quite a bit.

@Joe Link would like to hear from you. Send him a PM

 

[Ura-Ki]

In all my years doing it for real, I could count the number of times I actually needed to apply a TQ on one hand, most times, some quick handy work with forceps and cat gut to tie off a bleed and quick clot ( to be avoided if possible) or gauze wrapping/packing got the job done! I handled tons of ballistic/explosive amputations, and very few ever required a TQ, even as bad as they were, proper dressing worked far better and also allowed the trauma surgeons to save more tissue later, even though the clotting agents often made a mess of things ( especially if they are also having to abrade the trauma), it was still preferable to having to remove more of the limb! I only carry one TQ in my med kit, much preferring to have everything else I need! It seems to me the TQ thing is a Tacticool fad, with little in the way of actual usefulness as apposed to taking up valuable room for other things far more useful! The other issue I have against TQ's is most folks do not know how to apply them properly, or to tend to them once applied, and that can often lead to more serious trauma to the affected limb then if it had simply been dressed properly! Think about what it is your trying to do, stop a bleed, and think of all the ways possible to do that, a TQ should ONLY be used to stop a massive bleed, or at least slow it enough to allow you to properly address it! Get an arterial bleed that has retracted, you ether have to chase it, or pack it, and this is where a TQ can help, but you must know when to release the pressure and eventually remove it!

 

[E4mafia]

They pulled QC and other hemo stopping solutions from our IFAKs because they said people went into shock from the sudden sealing of blood flow.

For the rest that is not TQ, use a pressure dressing and remember. You aren't a medic/surgeon/doctor/ER room. You at best can only comfrot someone until they physically get into intensive care and slow the bleeding.

We got to run a combat medics course to learn this stuff. Those guys go through hell in their training compared to basic 11B.

 

[CamoDeafie]

There's a reason military IFAKs have one TQ each, and a lot more pressure bandages, guaze, and/or dressings. And I believe the doctrine is more for the combat medics to use your IFAK on you, not for you to treat yourself? Unlike the older Jungle First Aid Kit and just a dressing or three.

 

[OldTengu]

The biggest reason I can think of that I would prefer TQ over clotting powder (carry both every day) is that the likelihood of infection is much higher using clotting powder. If you're in an emergency situation you may not have time to sanitize, so pushing clotting agents into a wound can lead to other complications. TQ doesn't actually touch the wound, so anything that may have gotten in it is not likely to enter the wound.
if you're minutes away from a hospital and the wound is minor, different story. If not, TQ all day.

 

[Savage Jav]

In all my years doing it for real, I could count the number of times I actually needed to apply a TQ on one hand, most times, some quick handy work with forceps and cat gut to tie off a bleed and quick clot ( to be avoided if possible) or gauze wrapping/packing got the job done! I handled tons of ballistic/explosive amputations, and very few ever required a TQ, even as bad as they were, proper dressing worked far better and also allowed the trauma surgeons to save more tissue later, even though the clotting agents often made a mess of things ( especially if they are also having to abrade the trauma), it was still preferable to having to remove more of the limb! I only carry one TQ in my med kit, much preferring to have everything else I need! It seems to me the TQ thing is a Tacticool fad, with little in the way of actual usefulness as apposed to taking up valuable room for other things far more useful! The other issue I have against TQ's is most folks do not know how to apply them properly, or to tend to them once applied, and that can often lead to more serious trauma to the affected limb then if it had simply been dressed properly! Think about what it is your trying to do, stop a bleed, and think of all the ways possible to do that, a TQ should ONLY be used to stop a massive bleed, or at least slow it enough to allow you to properly address it! Get an arterial bleed that has retracted, you ether have to chase it, or pack it, and this is where a TQ can help, but you must know when to release the pressure and eventually remove it!

TQ is not a fad its just a more effective way to treat a wound than gauze for a limb injury they are just pushed more because of their effectiveness. I compare it the red dot vs iron sights, you can do good work with irons but it takes time and more discipline vs a red dot makes a shooter more effective. Yes people still apply them improperly but people also pack wounds improperly, not as simple a just pushing it into a hole you gotta fill the cavity and get hemostatic and pressure onto the arterial bleed. TQ's don't necessarily need to be removed for 2 reasons. 1) Medicine has gotten to the point that a TQ can be applied for 6-8 hours and still save the limb, with that in mind I would say not to remove a TQ unless you know your going to be a long time before medical assistance (like days). 2) If bleedings stopped compromise it by transitioning to a pressure dressing if you know the patient will see help in under an hour. It doesn't make sense because you open up the the of not being abt to stop bleeding again (though unlikely). This is just my opinions based on my medical knowledge and please don't take it as doctrine do your own research and form your own opinion.

 

[Savage Jav]

In all my years doing it for real, I could count the number of times I actually needed to apply a TQ on one hand, most times, some quick handy work with forceps and cat gut to tie off a bleed and quick clot ( to be avoided if possible) or gauze wrapping/packing got the job done! I handled tons of ballistic/explosive amputations, and very few ever required a TQ, even as bad as they were, proper dressing worked far better and also allowed the trauma surgeons to save more tissue later, even though the clotting agents often made a mess of things ( especially if they are also having to abrade the trauma), it was still preferable to having to remove more of the limb! I only carry one TQ in my med kit, much preferring to have everything else I need! It seems to me the TQ thing is a Tacticool fad, with little in the way of actual usefulness as apposed to taking up valuable room for other things far more useful! The other issue I have against TQ's is most folks do not know how to apply them properly, or to tend to them once applied, and that can often lead to more serious trauma to the affected limb then if it had simply been dressed properly! Think about what it is your trying to do, stop a bleed, and think of all the ways possible to do that, a TQ should ONLY be used to stop a massive bleed, or at least slow it enough to allow you to properly address it! Get an arterial bleed that has retracted, you ether have to chase it, or pack it, and this is where a TQ can help, but you must know when to release the pressure and eventually remove it!

Id also argue trauma from a TQ is better than being dead.

 

[Savage Jav]

There's a reason military IFAKs have one TQ each, and a lot more pressure bandages, guaze, and/or dressings. And I believe the doctrine is more for the combat medics to use your IFAK on you, not for you to treat yourself? Unlike the older Jungle First Aid Kit and just a dressing or three.

We carry 2-4 TQ's per soldier if not more

 

[Savage Jav]

Heres what we currently use in our IFAK. Comes with NSN number

 

[Savage Jav]

The biggest reason I can think of that I would prefer TQ over clotting powder (carry both every day) is that the likelihood of infection is much higher using clotting powder. If you're in an emergency situation you may not have time to sanitize, so pushing clotting agents into a wound can lead to other complications. TQ doesn't actually touch the wound, so anything that may have gotten in it is not likely to enter the wound.
if you're minutes away from a hospital and the wound is minor, different story. If not, TQ all day.

Dnt be afraid to use gauze, antibiotics are very good at killing any potential bacteria especially if you get to the hospital within a few hours of a wound. That being said try to use a clean material but if all you have is a t shirt to stuff and wrap a wound you'll probably be ok. Key is to get to a higher level of care quickly.

 

[Savage Jav]

They pulled QC and other hemo stopping solutions from our IFAKs because they said people went into shock from the sudden sealing of blood flow.

For the rest that is not TQ, use a pressure dressing and remember. You aren't a medic/surgeon/doctor/ER room. You at best can only comfrot someone until they physically get into intensive care and slow the bleeding.

We got to run a combat medics course to learn this stuff. Those guys go through hell in their training compared to basic 11B.

Haha yea AIT was fun. Basically was a human pin cushion for two weeks. Yes key is to transport to higher care people want to do too much to a patient because they have all these medical skill and have to use them. Keep it simple.

 

[Bushman]

@Bushman and your correct Combat Gauze and regular is more useful if you have the knowledge of how to use it. But I personally would carry a few tourniquets before I start thinking about gauze (If i had to choose one) as the likelihood of a limb injury is greater in a combat/active shooter scenario.

This. You explained this perfectly. I figured it had to be due to military doctrine, yes, they wear armor and most injuries are to their limbs, makes perfect sense. I carry a trauma kit with quick clot and two tourniquets in all my kits (my EDC bag) and my bug out bag. I might take you up on the combat gauze, I do have some already ($10 online) but also have the granules and TQ's as well.

I think a lot of people just copy whatever military does not realizing the circumstances are different between a soldier with armor that covers almost their entire torso vs civilians who get shot in the chest at the mall, etc.

 

[CamoDeafie]

I think a lot of people just copy whatever military does not realizing the circumstances are different between a soldier with armor that covers almost their entire torso vs civilians who get shot in the chest at the mall, etc.

On the other hand.... how often do you hear of people needing serious medical attention due to their idiocy with axes, machetes, hatchets, knives, tools in general? I mean.. we all have heard/read about a dull ax missing the log and striking the shin of the user... or a machete missing and hitting the users hand...

 

[oldcorpgunny]

Have you ever tried to clean those out of wounds? Its atrocious. You're right about limbs though. Thats why you pack junctions, TQ libs and apply pressure to the core/trunk. Seasoning someone's wound with celox isn't going to stop deep hemorrhages. You need to physically occlude blood flow, especially high pressure, high volume arterial flow. A GOOD Tq is the best way to do that on a limb- regardless if its been severed or not. Celox is not going to magically stop a bleed, it just accelerates clotting. It's probably the least effective blood-loss stopping tool.

Please, If you ever come to my aid with a pizza-pepper sized bag of celox and a belt or RATS TQ, just let me bleed out. Id rather you try to cram half a box of tampons in me.

I agree with you completely!

 

[oldcorpgunny]

Anyone remember when Rambo had a through and through gunshot would and cauterized it by pouring gun powder into it and then lighting it? That's the way my HMO doctors do things!