Why Do You Need An AR-15/AK-47/Military Style Rifle etc?

[Doublesunder]

As I understand it, the current push to ban "assault" weapons is based on a belief that this will protect kids from school shootings. If this is true, it seems like any argument based on 2nd amendment rights or self-defense isn't going to carry much weight on those supporting such a ban. Supporters will believe that their efforts to protect children is more important than your arguments to protect your rights. I am not saying they are correct, I'm just saying that if your goal is to convince the gun-control advocates to change their minds, you will have to address THEIR concerns rather than your own.

Many of us don't believe that a ban on 'assault' type weapons will be an effective way to stop school shootings. So How CAN we protect our school children?

Why haven't I heard about a push for encouraging more responsible 'control' of the guns we already have; safe and secure storage of guns, making sure that no child or teenager has access to any weapon because all weapons are securely locked up, maybe with additional trigger locks or cable locks in case a gun safe is left open or something? How many accidental shootings, school shootings or teen suicides would have been prevented if all guns in possible proximity to kids were locked up and unavailable? How many parents, grandparents, aunts and uncles and even neighbors would be willing to put some $$, time and effort into really securing their weapons if they understood the potentially positive effect that might have on our society? Maybe we as gun owners have to start a vocal push to 'control' our own guns and let people know that we are willing to 'control' our own guns to protect our communities. Perhaps then our non-gun-owner friends and neighbors would feel more secure and not feel like new laws had to be passed to protect "them" from "us."

None of us want another child to die in a school shooting, but without an easy answer as to HOW to make that happen, the push to DO SOMETHING about it can result in knee-jerk reactions. Maybe encouraging the safe-storage of unsecured weapons that are potentially accessible to kids would be a step in the right direction?

Maybe parents should try teaching their kids about safety and responsibility around firearms. Why are we punishing law abiding citizens because people can't and wont control their children.
I have three children and they have been taught respect and safety around firearms. I grew up in a household the same way.

It's parents responsibility to parent. Don't punish me for other peoples shortcomings.
I say bubblegum to that !!

 

[Cavedweller]

As I understand it, the current push to ban "assault" weapons is based on a belief that this will protect kids from school shootings. If this is true, it seems like any argument based on 2nd amendment rights or self-defense isn't going to carry much weight on those supporting such a ban. Supporters will believe that their efforts to protect children is more important than your arguments to protect your rights. I am not saying they are correct, I'm just saying that if your goal is to convince the gun-control advocates to change their minds, you will have to address THEIR concerns rather than your own.

Many of us don't believe that a ban on 'assault' type weapons will be an effective way to stop school shootings. So How CAN we protect our school children?

Why haven't I heard about a push for encouraging more responsible 'control' of the guns we already have; safe and secure storage of guns, making sure that no child or teenager has access to any weapon because all weapons are securely locked up, maybe with additional trigger locks or cable locks in case a gun safe is left open or something? How many accidental shootings, school shootings or teen suicides would have been prevented if all guns in possible proximity to kids were locked up and unavailable? How many parents, grandparents, aunts and uncles and even neighbors would be willing to put some $$, time and effort into really securing their weapons if they understood the potentially positive effect that might have on our society? Maybe we as gun owners have to start a vocal push to 'control' our own guns and let people know that we are willing to 'control' our own guns to protect our communities. Perhaps then our non-gun-owner friends and neighbors would feel more secure and not feel like new laws had to be passed to protect "them" from "us."

None of us want another child to die in a school shooting, but without an easy answer as to HOW to make that happen, the push to DO SOMETHING about it can result in knee-jerk reactions. Maybe encouraging the safe-storage of unsecured weapons that are potentially accessible to kids would be a step in the right direction?

I hesitate to respond to this post, because it's off topic, but I feel compelled to because some people just don't seem to comprehend that it's not about the guns. In China, where people can't own guns, they have school stabbings. In one such event, which made the papers in this country, 22 died.

The term "running amok" is a centuries-old Malay expression which literally means to pick up a machete and go on a killing spree.

Just a few days ago it was reported that the homicide rate in London exceeded that of New York for the first time due to a surge in knife murders. The point is that those who are determined to kill will find the means. So what's the point of placating the ignorant with cosmetic measures like "safe storage"?

 

[turbo_vanner]

Implying that you agree that a ban of assault rifles like AR-15s wouldn't decrease crime.

Implying you disagree with the statistic that showed the 1994 AWB didn't decrease crime.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, but I'm honestly not following your train of thought here.
Can you clarify @turbo_vanner?

In the first quote I'm not implying that the ban did little I literally said thats the only part i disagree with, no implication there.

In the second one, I simply said stats can be shaped to fit anyones narrative. I have already stated my beliefs on the issue. Am I or the stats I choose to believe correct? Who knows.

 

[DB is Here]

Maybe encouraging the safe-storage of unsecured weapons that are potentially accessible to kids would be a step in the right direction?

I'm one of those that believes a good gun owner also secures his weapons when he/she is not at home. That said, that wouldn't have stopped Cruz, he legally purchased his AR-15. The System (FBI, BCSO & his school for allowing in-house discipline vs. getting the cops involved to create a record) failed. They want more Government and the Gov failed. Yet that's on very few's radar.

 

[Andy54Hawken]

As I understand it, the current push to ban "assault" weapons is based on a belief that this will protect kids from school shootings. If this is true, it seems like any argument based on 2nd amendment rights or self-defense isn't going to carry much weight on those supporting such a ban. Supporters will believe that their efforts to protect children is more important than your arguments to protect your rights. I am not saying they are correct, I'm just saying that if your goal is to convince the gun-control advocates to change their minds, you will have to address THEIR concerns rather than your own.

Many of us don't believe that a ban on 'assault' type weapons will be an effective way to stop school shootings. So How CAN we protect our school children?

Why haven't I heard about a push for encouraging more responsible 'control' of the guns we already have; safe and secure storage of guns, making sure that no child or teenager has access to any weapon because all weapons are securely locked up, maybe with additional trigger locks or cable locks in case a gun safe is left open or something? How many accidental shootings, school shootings or teen suicides would have been prevented if all guns in possible proximity to kids were locked up and unavailable? How many parents, grandparents, aunts and uncles and even neighbors would be willing to put some $$, time and effort into really securing their weapons if they understood the potentially positive effect that might have on our society? Maybe we as gun owners have to start a vocal push to 'control' our own guns and let people know that we are willing to 'control' our own guns to protect our communities. Perhaps then our non-gun-owner friends and neighbors would feel more secure and not feel like new laws had to be passed to protect "them" from "us."

None of us want another child to die in a school shooting, but without an easy answer as to HOW to make that happen, the push to DO SOMETHING about it can result in knee-jerk reactions. Maybe encouraging the safe-storage of unsecured weapons that are potentially accessible to kids would be a step in the right direction?

To all here:
The member Blackpowerkeg is a very level headed and knowledgeable person , who I personally know.
This member went from being a "I don't like guns , no one needs a gun " type person to avid and excellent shooter and safe firearm owner...

In other words ...a person who can think for themselves and see things from a different point of view...
Also understand that Blackpowderkeg , likes to get to very bottom of things , to explore every detail and angle of a issue...

I also know that a up front in your face or argumentative response will not work at all with this member...
Does this mean that I always agree with this member...No...but I do remember a time when:
This member didn't like guns...and a kind , respectful "challenge" to the member's ideas ...worked better than a off the cuff , curt remark....


I hear you on being "safe" and safely securing your firearms...
If a law was made on needing a :
Locks...
Safe...
Cable...etc...
How would that be enforced...?
Plus what one household needs to safely secure their guns ...maybe vastly different than another household.
One size fits all solutions , usually mean one size fits none...

If you want to prevent accidental shootings...I think the best prevention is to make sure that everyone who comes into contact with you guns ....knows how to safely handle them.
Could that be a trigger lock or safe...yes of course...
But trigger locks and safes are like gun safeties ...you can rely on them and get lulled into a false sense of safety....
The best safety is simple :
Finger off the trigger...
Muzzle always pointed in a safe direction...
( Granted again a "one size solution..." )

Again please note that I am not against using trigger locks , safes etc...if that helps in your household then great...use 'em.

I am just saying that the best way ( in my experience ) to keep accidents to a minimum is to :
Teach finger off the Damn trigger and keep your muzzle pointed in a safe direction...

Also maybe a lesson in how firearms work and just what a bullet actually does do...kinda like the old style Driver's Ed. classes....
I not saying to make everyone a NRA member or even a gun owner...just saying that a class in school that teaches basic firearm safety and firearm function...may go a long way in preventing accidents.

Will a safety class stop all accidents...no , just like Drivers Ed...plenty of people young and old are still having accidents after taking Driver's Ed....
But a firearm safety class may just take away the fear that some folks have or keep the temptation to "play with the gun" and or "forbidden fruit" mystique from happening....

Is any of the above a whole answer or solution...?...No...
But the banning of a certain type of gun or a law requiring some sort of "safe storage " , which is already in place in many parts of the country , isn't really working either...
Andy

 

[3MTA3]

I like safes and cabinets and have both, however I need quicker access to my primary defensive weapons than a safe allows. The laws requiring "safe storage" also usually come with the ability for Law Enforcement to inspect at any time without a warrant. There is another initiative in the works for mandatory safe storage and we will need to look closely at that one for this type of Constitutional violation.

If I'm looking for solutions to push - and I think that's core to how we protect our civil rights while making people safer - I'd focus on the following:

1. Closing the "loophole" that doesn't require states to report criminal activity to NICS. It's currently voluntary and lapses in NICS reporting has allowed at least one mass murderer to acquire a weapon used in that massacre.
   
   
2. Providing adequate mental healthcare by increasing inpatient services and removing the stigma associated to mental illness. Oregon lawmakers are so hell bent on universal healthcare why are they not dealing with the "mental healthcare loophole"?
   
   
3. Enforcing the laws we already have on the books before we create new laws that take the civil rights away from others. I'm terming this the "enforcement loophole".
   
   
4. Holding law enforcement agencies accountable for gross negligence such as we have seen demonstrated by Broward County. At the same time ensure that we provide adequate resources to our own agencies. This is also part of the "enforcement loophole".
   
   
5. Institute a voluntary concealed carry program for educators and administrative staff at schools that provides training, qualification, and free range time/practice ammunition. The main resistance to this is currently the added costs of insurance to the schools. Strange how all of the sudden a child's life is less important than money, when we have had all these protests about how a child's life is more important than anything... This is the "immediate threat response loophole". Why are lawmakers so hell bent on leaving our children helpless during the 5-10 minutes it takes for the police to arrive, let alone assess and act?
   
   
6. Hire more security and concentrate on veterans who have already demonstrated competence in the field. I can think of nobody better qualified to defend our children. "immediate threat response loophole" part two.
   
   
7. When they tell you that there isn't enough money remind them of the HALF BILLION wasted planning a bridge that didn't get built and a web site that never worked. Would that money have been better spent on protecting our children? This is the "money is more important than our children's safety" loophole.
   
   
8. Use public funds to provide firearm safety courses for hunting, self defense, and general knowledge to the public. Time to close the "gun safety ignorance" loophole.

Any other solutions out there?

 

[albin25]

None of us want another child to die in a school shooting, but without an easy answer as to HOW to make that happen, the push to DO SOMETHING about it can result in knee-jerk reactions. Maybe encouraging the safe-storage of unsecured weapons that are potentially accessible to kids would be a step in the right direction?

At first I was hesitant to "like" Blackpowdrkeg's post. But, it was a well stated opinion, and seemed a good start at perhaps challenging us to perhaps consider being more aware of securing weapons that are not in immediate use. Lets keep in mind, that while every household is different and blanket solutions won't be needed or necessary to keep it's members safe, we ALL have visitors both welcome and unwelcome.
The problem is, Governments don't deal in subtle or flexible solutions. They deal in LAWS. Laws that can require rendering firearms worthless in common emergency situations. Laws that require unloaded guns, unloaded mags, separate locked storage for both and limits on ammo quantities, inspections, etc.
We can secure our firearms and that can reduce our own liability, but it will not solve the problem by any measurable amount because it is a small part of the violence problem. A problem that isn't even entirely about guns, and we have little real control of it because it really is a humanity problem not a hardware problem.
It's a reasonable "common sense" recommendation , like "wear your seatbelt", "lock your doors", and "don't run with scissors"...it's not a solution, it's "a step in the right direction".

 

[MrMillspecer]

I have always taught my kids to keep their guns locked up when unattended. I explained their friends might not have the experience to handle them safely or parents permission, or if a bad guy breaks in, he has a weapon he can use against you. I also don't want to make it easy for a burgler to have easy access to my valuable things, and would hate to ever see one of my firearms get into the wrong hands. When they are attended to, I have no problem with one or two of mine being out for home defense reasons. But won't leave them out in a way a bad guy could grab one before me.

 

[11Charlie]

I have always taught my kids to keep their guns locked up when in unattended. I explained their friends might not have the experience to handle them safely or parents permission, or if a bad guy breaks in, he has a weapon he can use against you. I also don't want to make it easy for a burgler to have easy access to my valuable things, and would hate to ever see one of my firearms get into the wrong hands. When they are attended to, I have no problem with one or two of mine being out for home defense reasons. But won't leave them out in a way a bad guy could grab one before me.

Exactly this!!

 

[3MTA3]

Listen to Mark Robinson stand up to his town council here: 'Law-Abiding Citizens Are the Majority!': Gun Owner Takes on City Council in Gun Show Debate

This guy is my new Hero of the Day! He truly speaks for the majority of us and his talking points are solid gold.

 

[etrain16]

Safe storage of firearms shouldn't have to be mandated by the government - I hate government getting involved in just about anything. I'd rather see folks use their own sense and properly secure their firearms. My method of storage changed once we had a child in the house. But looking back on it, even if you don't have kids, just for the simple purpose of protecting your investment from theft, rust and scratches, a quality safe is worth it. And with various quick-access safes available for home-defense weapons, there is little reason not to have something to keep the guns safe. Yes, it costs some money, but anyone can put aside some $$ here and there and save up for one. I bought mine and paid for it over 2 years to limit the single time hit. One of the best investments I've made.

When I was 12, I got my first gun, a Marlin Model 60 .22lr. That gun lived in my bedroom, on a rack, on the wall. It had a trigger lock, which I didn't have the key to. When I turned 16, I got the key and the freedom to go shoot when I want, so long as all rules were followed. Never had a single safety related issue with that gun. Too bad more folks don't get a chance to learn proper gun safety and storage, from an early age. Might help get rid of some of the accidental shootings we unfortunately hear about from time to time.

 

[DB is Here]

Too bad more folks don't get a chance to learn proper gun safety and storage, from an early age. Might help get rid of some of the accidental shootings we unfortunately hear about from time to time.

Nailed It @etrain16. Just like my Dad taught me to run a chainsaw at the age of 13. He told me, showed me, watched me then allowed me when I showed him I had the maturity to run if safety. Many tools can harm you if used with no training.

 

[Doublesunder]

A large portion of firearms owners have safes to protect them and store them.
That doesn't mean I want the government or my neighbors making a new law and forcing it down my throat.
And while I respect other peoples opinions on this subject matter, be prepared to get your feelings hurt.

My freedoms override your hurt feelings!!

 

[3MTA3]

More people are murdered by blunt objects like baseball bats and hammers than by rifles. Should we require them to be locked up?

More people are killed by drunk drivers than all firearms - should we require that alcohol be locked up and cars garaged to prevent theft?

More people are killed by medical accidents than almost anything else - should doctors, nurses, and pharmacy techs be locked in a safe when not in use?

 

[DB is Here]

That doesn't mean I want the government or my neighbors making a new law and forcing it down my throat.

Exactly this...For the life of me I can't understand why we don't do PSA's to get safety concerns out to the public. Law after Law is just suffocating our Freedoms.

 

[11Charlie]

Maybe we should make all the politicians put breathalyzers in there cars so they can't drive! Cuz you know those jack azzes are always drunk!

 

[Blackpowdrkeg]

When I wrote my post suggesting we advertise our desire to keep our weapons stored safely, i was not suggesting any laws being passed. That would be the last thing I desire. Instead, I was suggesting it as a voluntary 'goodwill' effort to educate non-gun-owners to that fact that many (if not most) gun-owners will make responsible efforts to secure their weapons. People who are unfamiliar with guns can have many misconceptions about both the weapons and their owners. My suggestion was an attempt to help bridge that knowledge-gap.

As Andy pointed out, I used to be among those who truly believed that guns were evil, and so I think I might have some insight into the thinking of those still in that camp.

When Andy introduced me to his weapons and I saw how careful he was with them, how he kept them securely locked up, how gun safely was #1 with him, I was able to relax enough to actually listen to him and consider his point of view.

When we reassure non-gun-owners that we are not crazies with guns laying out all over, ready to shoot at anything that blinks, lines of communication and new understanding can open up. Stomping our feet, quoting the 2nd amendment and demanding we be allowed to own 27 AR's may make us feel better, but won't be successful at changing the minds of the opposition. So far, our tactics have not been as successful as we desire, so maybe it is time to consider other approaches to retaining our 2nd amendment rights. Because those rights are essential and should not be infringed.

 

[DB is Here]

When we reassure non-gun-owners that we are not crazies with guns laying out all over, ready to shoot at anything that blinks, lines of communication and new understanding can open up. Stomping our feet, quoting the 2nd amendment and demanding we be allowed to own 27 AR's may make us feel better, but won't be successful at changing the minds of the opposition. So far, our tactics have not been as successful as we desire, so maybe it is time to consider other approaches to retaining our 2nd amendment rights. Because those rights are essential and should not be infringed.

There's a lot to: "A soft answer turns away wrath" approach...

 

[3MTA3]

When I wrote my post suggesting we advertise our desire to keep our weapons stored safely, i was not suggesting any laws being passed. That would be the last thing I desire. Instead, I was suggesting it as a voluntary 'goodwill' effort to educate non-gun-owners to that fact that many (if not most) gun-owners will make responsible efforts to secure their weapons. People who are unfamiliar with guns can have many misconceptions about both the weapons and their owners. My suggestion was an attempt to help bridge that knowledge-gap.

As Andy pointed out, I used to be among those who truly believed that guns were evil, and so I think I might have some insight into the thinking of those still in that camp.

When Andy introduced me to his weapons and I saw how careful he was with them, how he kept them securely locked up, how gun safely was #1 with him, I was able to relax enough to actually listen to him and consider his point of view.

When we reassure non-gun-owners that we are not crazies with guns laying out all over, ready to shoot at anything that blinks, lines of communication and new understanding can open up. Stomping our feet, quoting the 2nd amendment and demanding we be allowed to own 27 AR's may make us feel better, but won't be successful at changing the minds of the opposition. So far, our tactics have not been as successful as we desire, so maybe it is time to consider other approaches to retaining our 2nd amendment rights. Because those rights are essential and should not be infringed.

Agreed, and this is why this thread was created - how do we persuade others to see that we aren't as painted by the media and that gun bans aren't the answer. You are quite right that our tactics aren't working and as the saying goes "If you always do what you always did, you will always get what you always got.

 

[bbbass]

I will store my weapons as I see fit. Ain't nobody's bidness but my own. That's not to say that people aren't welcome to their opinions. Have at it boys and girls!!! But no passing of laws about what "others" should do eh. I realize that our society has an interest in this, but leave us some tiny amount of freedom.

My answer when asked "Why do you need xxxxxxxxx" is, "Why do you ask". That is because the nature of the original question implies a sin against reasonable behavior in a society and puts the respondent on the defensive. Sooooo, reverse it on them. Let them play defense and justify their question and their position.