What makes the M4/M16 type rifles more deadly besides the select fire trigger?

[The B]

Two separate groups of 10 riflemen are sitting stationary in parallel lines 900 yards apart from each other on flat ground w/ no cover. One group is armed with AR15s chambered in 5.56x45/.223 (55gr). The other group is armed with bolt-action rifles w/ 26" bull-barrels chambered in 7.62x51/.308 (168gr).

If the two groups are firing upon each other... Which group of rifleman is going to more deadly?

this has literally never happened, and literally never will..

so i'll counter you: same dudes, same guns, but we're in a shopping mall, or house, or farm, or hospital, or park, or forest, or desert, or a church, or, or, or, or, or.....

 

[RedRover]

this has literally never happened, and literally never will..

so i'll counter you: same dudes, same guns, but we're in a shopping mall, or house, or farm, or hospital, or park, or forest, or desert, or a church, or, or, or, or, or.....

The real point is that it's about the abilities of the dudes, and shot placement; not what they may be packing.

Who has the element of surprise? Are the bolt-action dudes FAST(MOS 8152)? Are the AR15 dudes bench-rest range weekend-warriors?

 

[The B]

The real point is that it's about the abilities of the dudes, and shot placement; not what they may be packing.

Who has the element of surprise? Are the bolt-action dudes FAST(MOS 8152)? Are the AR15 dudes bench-rest range weekend-warriors?

Op didnt ask if there are people or conditions that are deadlier than others, he asked about ARs. The tool.

if i asked you what makes a better nail-driver, a hammer or a crescent wrench.. are you gonna answer "well it depends on all these different things...."

No, youre gonna say "a hammer, dumbass."

 

[RedRover]

A skilled carpenter can take a framing hammer and sink a 16d nail with one strike into solid wood. A typical homeowner/DIYer can't do the same.

A skilled rifleman w/ a semi-auto AR15 is going to be more deadly than a person with little-to-no experience w/ a full-auto M16. The same would apply vice-versa w/ the rifles swapped.

Tools aren't innately deadly, it is the person wielding the tool.

 

[uberguy]

...confronted with some of these un-spun stats (namely that "gun deaths" includes suicides, at half or more of the total)

Not meaning to pick nits, but the typical figures for 'gun deaths' - it is indeed, greater than half.

Firearm Deaths By Suicide
US: 62%
WA: 75% +/-
OR: 80% +/-

It's hit 79% in WA, 83% OR (2010-2014); It is also very clear anti-gunners don't care much about the subject, which historical data shows very few women, children or minorities choose suicide by firearm.

It is predominately male, more specifically white males, more specifically middle-age to elderly and rural white males as a supermajority of gun suicides (greater than 60%) - which is NOT a demographic urban liberals give two shakes about. I've researched these facts in the past and am confident of their veracity.

According to an October 2019 poll by the American Public Media Research Lab, only 23 percent of Americans correctly identified suicides as the leading cause of gun fatalities. CDC data shows that 62% of (US) gun deaths from 2008 to 2017 were suicides.

https://www.oregon.gov/oha/ph/DiseasesConditions/InjuryFatalityData/Documents/Fact%20Sheets/firearms_2016v07132016.pdf

WA PO: Gun suicide and homicide: statistics shaped by race

America's pattern of gun deaths is split across black and white, with the vast majority of whites dying from suicide and a similar proportion of blacks dying from homicide. A similar split occurs with more homicide in diverse urban cities and more suicide in the rural areas that are predominantly white.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/national/gun-deaths/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/feature/wp/2013/03/22/gun-deaths-shaped-by-race-in-america/

 

[mhayd93]

Not meaning to pick nits, but the typical figures for 'gun deaths' - it is indeed, greater than half.

Firearm Deaths By Suicide
US: 62%
WA: 75% +/-
OR: 80% +/-

It's hit 79% in WA, 83% OR (2010-2014); It is also very clear anti-gunners don't care much about the subject, which historical data shows very few women, children or minorities choose suicide by firearm.

It is predominately male, more specifically white males, more specifically middle-age to elderly and rural white males as a supermajority of gun suicides (greater than 60%) - which is NOT a demographic urban liberals give two shakes about. I've researched these facts in the past and am confident of their veracity.

According to an October 2019 poll by the American Public Media Research Lab, only 23 percent of Americans correctly identified suicides as the leading cause of gun fatalities.

https://www.oregon.gov/oha/ph/DiseasesConditions/InjuryFatalityData/Documents/Fact%20Sheets/firearms_2016v07132016.pdf

You live up to your profile pic!

 

[uberguy]

You live up to your profile pic!

Please forgive me for rounding to the nearest whole numbers. I dislike fractional deaths, they are grammatically illogical, while still mathematically correct.

 

[RX-79G]

Two separate groups of 10 riflemen are sitting stationary in parallel lines 900 yards apart from each other on flat ground w/ no cover. One group is armed with AR15s chambered in 5.56x45/.223 (55gr). The other group is armed with bolt-action rifles w/ 26" bull-barrels chambered in 7.62x51/.308 (168gr).

If the two groups are firing upon each other... Which group of rifleman is going to more deadly?

The ones dumb enough to stay where they are instead of using the long range to escape?

 

[The B]

Tools aren't innately deadly, it is the person wielding the tool.

the tool is the topic.

this is a hardware conversation, not software.

were all carpenters here... we all own hammers. We all know the skill required to wield a hammer correctly or well... thats not what were talking about. Were talking about which hammer drives the most nails fastest.

 

[The B]

Not meaning to pick nits, but the typical figures for 'gun deaths' - it is indeed, greater than half.

Firearm Deaths By Suicide
US: 62%
WA: 75% +/-
OR: 80% +/-

It's hit 79% in WA, 83% OR (2010-2014); It is also very clear anti-gunners don't care much about the subject, which historical data shows very few women, children or minorities choose suicide by firearm.

It is predominately male, more specifically white males, more specifically middle-age to elderly and rural white males as a supermajority of gun suicides (greater than 60%) - which is NOT a demographic urban liberals give two shakes about. I've researched these facts in the past and am confident of their veracity.

According to an October 2019 poll by the American Public Media Research Lab, only 23 percent of Americans correctly identified suicides as the leading cause of gun fatalities.

https://www.oregon.gov/oha/ph/DiseasesConditions/InjuryFatalityData/Documents/Fact%20Sheets/firearms_2016v07132016.pdf

Not at all - thats great info!

 

[RedRover]

the tool is the topic.

this is a hardware conversation, not software.

were all carpenters here... we all own hammers. We all know the skill required to wield a hammer correctly or well... thats not what were talking about. Were talking about which hammer drives the most nails fastest.

Once again, a skilled carpenter will drive more nails using a 12 oz. smooth faced hammer, than one who is unskilled using a 23 oz. waffle-faced hammer.

Why? The skilled individual will be faster/have more consistent hits on target and less misses than the novice.

 

[uberguy]

Not at all - thats great info!

It's also worth pointing out that while gun-control (GC) does accomplish next to nothing in reducing criminal violence, it's even less effective at reducing gun suicides by any statistically impactful measures.

People who make the claim the US has an 'epidemic of gun violence', invariably include suicides in the totals of firearm deaths merely to dramatize a perceived impact of the next GC initiative-law after the next.

If anti-firearm people were serious about addressing the magnitude of concern, adult suicide would be legalized and well over half of the 'epidemic' is vaporized. But they won't, because they rely on a straw-man argument.

 

[Knobgoblin]

Two separate groups of 10 riflemen are sitting stationary in parallel lines 900 yards apart from each other on flat ground w/ no cover. One group is armed with AR15s chambered in 5.56x45/.223 (55gr). The other group is armed with bolt-action rifles w/ 26" bull-barrels chambered in 7.62x51/.308 (168gr).

If the two groups are firing upon each other... Which group of rifleman is going to more deadly?

The group with the strongest desire to win.

 

[Hueco]

Once again, a skilled carpenter will drive more nails using a 12 oz. smooth faced hammer, than one who is unskilled using a 23 oz. waffle-faced hammer.

Why? The skilled individual will be faster/have more consistent hits on target and less misses than the novice.

Who can drive more nails: a carpenter with a hammer (any hammer) or a dude (unskilled laborer) with a pneumatic nail gun?

 

[The B]

Once again, a skilled carpenter will drive more nails using a 12 oz. smooth faced hammer, than one who is unskilled using a 23 oz. waffle-faced hammer.

Why? The skilled individual will be faster/have more consistent hits on target and less misses than the novice.

Youre missing the point entirely man.

 

[DirectDrive]

Once again, a skilled carpenter will drive more nails using a 12 oz. smooth faced hammer, than one who is unskilled using a 23 oz. waffle-faced hammer.

Why? The skilled individual will be faster/have more consistent hits on target and less misses than the novice.

Just don't hit your thumb with a fresh, sharp waffle face.
I't's a smash with a rip enhancement.

 

[RedRover]

Youre missing the point entirely man.

You're missing the point, man.

An inanimate object isn't deadly. The person behind the inanimate object is. Guns don't kill people....

Who can drive more nails: a carpenter with a hammer (any hammer) or a dude (unskilled laborer) with a pneumatic nail gun?

Does the unskilled laborer shoot a bunch of shiners(misses) that have to be re-nailed? Does he jamb the mag/piston, because he doesn't know how to load the clips right? Does he shoot himself in the foot/fingers?

I would wager that a skilled framing carpenter could nail off a sheet of plywood by hand correctly in equal(or less time) than it would take an unskilled novice to do so with a nail gun.

Yes. An M16 fires more rounds cyclically at a faster rate. However, A skilled rifleman behind a semi-auto AR15 is putting more on target.

Hence the rifleman behind the semi-auto AR15 is more deadly.

Jerry Miculek will beat you in a fast-draw with a 5-shot revolver before you can get one shot off in your Glock18.

You want to keep arguing that. Go right ahead. I'm right. You're wrong.

 

[Knobgoblin]

You're missing the point, man.

An inanimate object isn't deadly. The person behind the inanimate object is. Guns don't kill people....

Does the unskilled laborer shoot a bunch of shiners(misses) that have to be re-nailed? Does he jamb the mag/piston, because he doesn't know how to load the clips right? Does he shoot himself in the foot/fingers?

I would wager that a skilled framing carpenter could nail off a sheet of plywood by hand correctly in equal(or less time) than it would take an unskilled novice to do so with a nail gun.

Yes. An M16 fires more rounds cyclically at a faster rate. However, A skilled rifleman behind a semi-auto AR15 is putting more on target.

Hence the rifleman behind the semi-auto AR15 is more deadly.

Jerry Miculek will beat you in a fast-draw with a 5-shot revolver before you can get one shot off in your Glock18.

You want to keep arguing that. Go right ahead. I'm right. You're wrong.

 

[The B]

You're missing the point, man.

An inanimate object isn't deadly. The person behind the inanimate object is. Guns don't kill people....

Does the unskilled laborer shoot a bunch of shiners(misses) that have to be re-nailed? Does he jamb the mag/piston, because he doesn't know how to load the clips right? Does he shoot himself in the foot/fingers?

I would wager that a skilled framing carpenter could nail off a sheet of plywood by hand correctly in equal(or less time) than it would take an unskilled novice to do so with a nail gun.

Yes. An M16 fires more rounds cyclically at a faster rate. However, A skilled rifleman behind a semi-auto AR15 is putting more on target.

Hence the rifleman behind the semi-auto AR15 is more deadly.

Jerry Miculek will beat you in a fast-draw with a 5-shot revolver before you can get one shot off in your Glock18.

You want to keep arguing that. Go right ahead. I'm right. You're wrong.

Cool story. That isnt the topic.

 

[RedRover]

Cool story. That isnt the topic.

Actually the topic is:

What makes the M4/M16 type rifles more deadly besides the select fire trigger?

The answer is: The M4/M16 isn't necessarily more or less deadly (than the AR15) -- Being that inanimate objects aren't innately deadly.

A 22lr in the cranial cavity from a well-placed shot will be more deadly than a .223 in the glutes.

Yet, there are those ITT that would state this little gem... and I quote:

nah, dawg.. im sorry.. ARs are way "deadlier" than flintlocks, or most other guns in the safe. in fact im not sure more overall kill-power exists in any small arm.

This right here is almost sig-worthy.

Thanks for playing.