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I'm old so please bear with me. I think that you might find this
interesting and informative.

For 50 plus years I worked as an operations research analyst.
(This is someone who looks at what is going on and what might
happen in the future if things continue and then makes recommendations
of what changes might be beneficial to reach a more desirable future.)

Ok. There is my "bonified." Now let me tell you about the past.

When I was a young man, my Grandfather talked to me about the Prohibition Era.
Most of us still living never lived thru the time when alcohol was banned in the USA,
but it did happen. I asked Granddad how this came about. He said that he didn't know.
Everyone drank and no one really thought that alcohol would be banned.

When working on my Masters degree, I wrote a paper on how alcohol came to be
banned in the USA. I won't bore you with the details. The bottom-line is that
the society at that instant in time reached a "tipping point."

Here is the definition of a tipping point:
"The point at which a series of small changes or incidents becomes significant
enough to cause a larger, more insignificant change."

In the case of Probibition, people were reacting to a series of small events.
Alcoholism had reached a height where families were being torn apart, children
were going hungry, employees were unable to function, crime was rampant, drunks
staggered along streets accosting people for money and so on.

Many small segments of society had, had enough. It was proposed that banning
alcohol would solve all of these problems. And, people jumped on it.

Got the picture now? It was a tipping point. Enough incidents had occurred that
people would grasp at anything that promised a solution. Hence Prohibition passed.

Does this sound familiar? It should. Think about events such as nightly shootings,
mall shootings, auto to auto shootings and so on. An ongoing series of events that people
want to stop.

As an analyst, I can tell that Oregon is at a tipping point. All that has happened
over the last few years has created a place and time when groups are grasping
at anything as a solution.

Bottomline is that it is highly likely the gun control measure will pass. If the
election were to be held today, the probability of passage is 75% or greater.

Will this bill stop all those incidents which have brought us to this point?
The answer is NO. No more than Prohibition stopped the problems associated
with alcohol.

Can anything be done to change this outcome? Perhaps. From my perspective
as an operations analyst I want to present what I think is the only possible solution.

First, stop attaching this bill as "a bad bill". It doesn't do any good to say that
even if it is true. All you are doing is polarizing the population.

Second, agree that something needs to be done, but tell people that this bill
is terribly flawed in what it is trying to accomplish. Point out the flaws and
how this bill will not help (if you interested in how to do this I can tell you).

Third, commit to working on a series of compromise bills/laws that would
have the impact that everyone would like to see. For example, restricting
purchase/ownership of semi-automatic weapons to people over the age
of 25. Yes, it is a bitter bill to swallow, but it just might stop a lot of the
school and mall shootings based on the age demographics of who
does these type of shootings. (Your children can still shoot bolt action
rifles and revolvers._ For example, commit to a bill/law that requires
DAs to prosecute any felon who uses a firearm in a crime or is caught
with a firearm. No plea deals. No paroles. No early release.
And so on.

If you don't offer some hope, then I can guarantee the current bill
will pass and it is even worse than you imagine. It is going to take
"give and take" to stop it.

Now comes the sad part. Every hear the saying "lots of smoke but
no fire"? It means the same as lots of talk and no action.
This is true of most gun owners. Lots of talk about how important
it is to protect their rights, but little action. 45% of gun owners admit
that they rarely vote. You do NOT defeat ballot measures by saying
how bad something is and then not voting. Most of you who don't
vote use the excuse that your vote "doesn't matter" or "does not good".
You are wrong.

There are two things you can do. Think about what I have said and
vote. If you really want to defeat this bill, then talk to your friends,
neighbors and anyone who might listen to you. Do what I have
suggested. Agree that something must be done, but point out
that this bill does hot do what needs to be done. Suggest things
that are reasonable and that might really make a difference.

If you want, copy this message off and read it to them. We want
to mitigate this problem as much as you do. Tell them so. Let us
find real solutions that we can all live with.

TJ
 
I read your post several times, and believe this;

Any time "RESTRICTION" is used when discussing gun control you have just lost a great deal of gun owners with your thoughts.

(RESTRICTION)

1. The action of restricting or the state of being restricted.

2. Something that restricts; a regulation or limitation.

3. The act of restricting, or the state of being restricted; limitation; confinement within bounds: as, grounds open to the public without restriction.


I say this not to argue or belittle your comments.

I believe most 2A supporters believe these to be the reality of our current situation.

  • There are enough gun laws on the books; creating more is their way of chipping away at our 2A rights.
  • When the laws we have now are no longer being enforced, and criminals are set free back into society; new laws only affect the 2A supporters.
  • Recent laws and limitations have proven to have had ZERO effect on crime and only affect the LAW ABIDING CITIZENS of the country. So once again creating new laws is their way of chipping away at our 2A rights.

As I've stated on this forum the steps to change the current lawlessness in our society will NEVER be fixed with more GUN LAWS! Picture the current status of lawlessness in the country as a tree. The tree has thousands of individual roots that nourish the lawlessness that is growing. Find a way to start cutting away at the root of each individual problem and change will happen.

But doing that doesn't get politicians reelected, feed the liberal machine or stuff cash into the corrupted pockets of the elected officials we tolerate. So it WILL NEVER HAPPEN!

They fear us the voter's and smear lipstick onto the larger groups and cities that control the voting outcome. They feed them with their lies and shadow responses to their fears and speak onto them the words that they want to hear.

But from all of this just remember this; they fear the voters!

So please speak your mind and VOTE; if nothing else.


Mark Sr
 
Last Edited:
No more compromise. Compromise is what got us where we are, more compromise over more decades will make us worse off than today. Not one more inch.
 
No more compromise. Compromise is what got us where we are, more compromise over more decades will make us worse off than today. Not one more inch.
100% correct!

They do not enforce the laws we have now when it comes to firearms, murder, theft and all the others.
So those who believe more laws will change anything need to remove their rose colored glasses and pull their proverbial head out of there a$$!
 
Last Edited:
Not being an Oregon resident, ever, I have no major role in this fight. That being said, I respectfully disagree with your premise and conclusions.

Influence is what pushes poor, rushed, or Ill advised decisions. Every major event in human history is instigated by a charismatic few. As most people are followers, they latch on to the ones that appeal to them the most. Most people are either incapable or unwilling to to think for themselves. Instead, they adopt the views of people they admire, respect, or like. Offering compromises such as you suggest will only provide a step onto more demands next time.

I would suggest either popularizing our own influencers and/or tearing theirs down. That is why the NRA has been their boogeyman for so long, and why they have been practically gelded at this point.
 
There may (or may not) be a 75% probability this ballot measure will pass, but with the recent SCOTUS ruling of "strict scrutiny" requirements concerning our ENUMERATED 2A rights, there's a 100% certainty it will not stand when challenged in court.

Their only chance is going through the process of repealing the 2A…. good luck with THAT. Let the fools vote how they may, I will continue to live as a free citizen.
 
Last Edited:
So those who believe more laws will change anything need to remove their rose colored glasses and pull their proverbial head out of there a$$!
That could prove to be rather difficult... Looks like it's jammed quite a ways up in there... :s0092:

HeadUpAssSyndrome.jpg
 
One of the leaders of the Prohibition movement stated that if they could get their program introduced into the schools, within a certain number of years, they could get their goals put into law.

Now look at what is happening to the curriculum in our schools today. :rolleyes:
 
I read your post several times, and believe this;

Any time "RESTRICTION" is used when discussing gun control you have just lost a great deal of gun owners with your thoughts.

(RESTRICTION)

1. The action of restricting or the state of being restricted.

2. Something that restricts; a regulation or limitation.

3. The act of restricting, or the state of being restricted; limitation; confinement within bounds: as, grounds open to the public without restriction.


I say this not to argue or belittle your comments.

I believe most 2A supporters believe these to be the reality of our current situation.

  • There are enough gun laws on the books; creating more is their way of chipping away at our 2A rights.
  • When the laws we have now are no longer being enforced, and criminals are set free back into society; new laws only affect the 2A supporters.
  • Recent laws and limitations have proven to have had ZERO effect on crime and only affect the LAW ABIDING CITIZENS of the country. So once again creating new laws is their way of chipping away at our 2A rights.

As I've stated on this forum the steps to change the current lawlessness in our society will NEVER be fixed with more GUN LAWS! Picture the current status of lawlessness in the country as a tree. The tree has thousands of individual roots that nourish the lawlessness that is growing. Find a way to start cutting away at the root of each individual problem and change will happen.

But doing that doesn't get politicians reelected, feed the liberal machine or stuff cash into the corrupted pockets of the elected officials we tolerate. So it WILL NEVER HAPPEN!

They fear us the voter's and smear lipstick onto the larger groups and cities that control the voting outcome. They feed them with their lies and shadow responses to their fears and speak onto them the words that they want to hear.

But from all of this just remember this; they fear the voters!

So please speak your mind and VOTE; is nothing else.


Mark Sr
This.

Joe
 
I'm old so please bear with me. I think that you might find this
interesting and informative.

For 50 plus years I worked as an operations research analyst.
(This is someone who looks at what is going on and what might
happen in the future if things continue and then makes recommendations
of what changes might be beneficial to reach a more desirable future.)

Ok. There is my "bonified." Now let me tell you about the past.

When I was a young man, my Grandfather talked to me about the Prohibition Era.
Most of us still living never lived thru the time when alcohol was banned in the USA,
but it did happen. I asked Granddad how this came about. He said that he didn't know.
Everyone drank and no one really thought that alcohol would be banned.

When working on my Masters degree, I wrote a paper on how alcohol came to be
banned in the USA. I won't bore you with the details. The bottom-line is that
the society at that instant in time reached a "tipping point."

Here is the definition of a tipping point:
"The point at which a series of small changes or incidents becomes significant
enough to cause a larger, more insignificant change."

In the case of Probibition, people were reacting to a series of small events.
Alcoholism had reached a height where families were being torn apart, children
were going hungry, employees were unable to function, crime was rampant, drunks
staggered along streets accosting people for money and so on.

Many small segments of society had, had enough. It was proposed that banning
alcohol would solve all of these problems. And, people jumped on it.

Got the picture now? It was a tipping point. Enough incidents had occurred that
people would grasp at anything that promised a solution. Hence Prohibition passed.

Does this sound familiar? It should. Think about events such as nightly shootings,
mall shootings, auto to auto shootings and so on. An ongoing series of events that people
want to stop.

As an analyst, I can tell that Oregon is at a tipping point. All that has happened
over the last few years has created a place and time when groups are grasping
at anything as a solution.

Bottomline is that it is highly likely the gun control measure will pass. If the
election were to be held today, the probability of passage is 75% or greater.

Will this bill stop all those incidents which have brought us to this point?
The answer is NO. No more than Prohibition stopped the problems associated
with alcohol.

Can anything be done to change this outcome? Perhaps. From my perspective
as an operations analyst I want to present what I think is the only possible solution.

First, stop attaching this bill as "a bad bill". It doesn't do any good to say that
even if it is true. All you are doing is polarizing the population.

Second, agree that something needs to be done, but tell people that this bill
is terribly flawed in what it is trying to accomplish. Point out the flaws and
how this bill will not help (if you interested in how to do this I can tell you).

Third, commit to working on a series of compromise bills/laws that would
have the impact that everyone would like to see. For example, restricting
purchase/ownership of semi-automatic weapons to people over the age
of 25. Yes, it is a bitter bill to swallow, but it just might stop a lot of the
school and mall shootings based on the age demographics of who
does these type of shootings. (Your children can still shoot bolt action
rifles and revolvers._ For example, commit to a bill/law that requires
DAs to prosecute any felon who uses a firearm in a crime or is caught
with a firearm. No plea deals. No paroles. No early release.
And so on.

If you don't offer some hope, then I can guarantee the current bill
will pass and it is even worse than you imagine. It is going to take
"give and take" to stop it.

Now comes the sad part. Every hear the saying "lots of smoke but
no fire"? It means the same as lots of talk and no action.
This is true of most gun owners. Lots of talk about how important
it is to protect their rights, but little action. 45% of gun owners admit
that they rarely vote. You do NOT defeat ballot measures by saying
how bad something is and then not voting. Most of you who don't
vote use the excuse that your vote "doesn't matter" or "does not good".
You are wrong.

There are two things you can do. Think about what I have said and
vote. If you really want to defeat this bill, then talk to your friends,
neighbors and anyone who might listen to you. Do what I have
suggested. Agree that something must be done, but point out
that this bill does hot do what needs to be done. Suggest things
that are reasonable and that might really make a difference.

If you want, copy this message off and read it to them. We want
to mitigate this problem as much as you do. Tell them so. Let us
find real solutions that we can all live with.

TJ
Not this.

Joe
 
I think the the OP raises some good points. Where I disagree is that the proponents of the legislation here are not interested in compromise. They are interested in eradicating private gun ownership. They don't believe the Second Amendment is still valid. My guess is that they are not fans of the First, either. So while I normally believe in compromise, the proponents do not.

One sided compromise doesn't make sense. A lesson some Republicans in the Senate appear to have missed. However, I surely hope folks vote.
 
There is some logic in raising the age limit for buying certain types of firearms. Especially for males. Because not all males automatically have grown-up brains at age 18 or 21. Maybe by age 40.

BUT: Logic or any other explanation would never work for this situation here in the US, the word being discrimination. Although minors have been discriminated against (however rightfully) here forever. It's just that being a "minor" has to end somewhere, so over the years it's been decided that 18 or 21 is it. Beyond that tests the tolerance of society.

We trust 17 year old soldiers with automatic weapons, there might be a story there.

As to the 75% who favor latest control proposals, may be an upper limit but certainly 60%, as we've experienced here in WA state. That was before the riot and commotion in summer 2020, so the number might be lower now. But I don't think in a winning way. Too many soccer moms and people who don't see a problem with regulating something they don't own. I've read that the percentage of households owning guns went from 37% in 2019 to 42% in 2020, then leveled off at that number in 2021.
 
Too many soccer moms and people who don't see a problem with regulating something they don't own.
There's the problem right there!

For all those 2A antis out there that don't want a gun? Don't bubbleguming buy one, then! And leave me and my guns the bubblegum alone! :mad:
 
About the "tipping point" concept. Which has some merit, in that the piling-on of mass shooting incidents has tended to rally more public outcry about these events.

Yet the mass shootings have somewhat abated during the Covid era. In large measure because for a while, mass gatherings had been curtailed and many places just weren't open. As a result, the constant news barrage about mass shooting abated and the social contagion ("copycat") aspect faded away. Psychologists who study this stuff believe that the young males who commit the vast majority of these crimes use previous shooters and shootings as models. They mimic the guy who did it before to carry out their perceived grievances. They don't see this on the news, their urge isn't reinforced. Or something like that.

Another thing that has slowed down the tipping point, the 5% of households who rushed out to buy guns in 2020.

There's the problem right there!
The thinking is, "I don't have one, this sounds like it might do some good, therefore what's the harm in it?" I gets even simpler with school funding measures on the ballot, "It's for the kids." Tell most voters that, they'll vote for their own hanging.

The core problem to this publicity issue is, the anti-gun people have a good sell for voting their way, which is safety. We don't have a comparable "sell" for voting against. You can't get people to vote against safety. We have a higher goal, but the average voter doesn't know what the Bill of Rights is.
 
The public is brainwashed by incessant media reports of shootings and the "concerned" expressions of the talkinglibheads. Therefore, you can ban apple pie if the media wants it so. We are a nation of sheeple.

The wrench in the gears is the supreme court - the only bulwark against a leftist (D) single party dictatorship. Oh., they will try to pass laws (law #32,331 will surely be effective, since 32330 laws did not work).

The left, more than any other political group, is a monolith of group-think. Group emotion. Immature. They are true believers in the great reset/net zero/world government plan. Can't reason with them. They are mostly not evil, but their ideas are.

Voting blocs: 1/3 left, 1/3 middle, 1/3 right. Gotta win over the middle, as they swing elections.
 
...Where I disagree is that the proponents of the legislation here are not interested in compromise. They are interested in eradicating private gun ownership. ...
100% this! They want USA to be like some European countries where private citizens are not allowed to have guns.

Everything that is currently going on shows they want to get rid of private gun ownership:

Biden saying he wants to eliminate assault weapons, ATF door to door visits, ATF copying FFL records to add to their illegal registry, FBI getting involved with creating a CCW registry, sheriffs in some counties going door to door and confiscating guns on a large scale using red flag laws, state legislators openly defying the Supreme Court by passing gun laws they know will not stand up to legal scrutiny, multiple bills to restrict gun ownership on state level in some states, shipping companies refusing to ship gun parts, businesses threatening to withdraw (or have withdrawn) sponsorship for things related to guns, and on and on.

This represents a huge, well organized, and well funded nationwide push to demonize gun owners.

Also it just so happens that the current vogue in our country is virtue signalling. They want to show "look I'm a good person because I'm against this". The current demonization of gun owners is just a large scale version of that virtue signalling.
 
Also it just so happens that the current vogue in our country is virtue signalling. They wan to show "look I'm a good person because I'm against this". The current demonization of gun owners is just a large scale version of that virtue signalling.
Virtue signal.JPG
 
The core problem to this publicity issue is, the anti-gun people have a good sell for voting their way, which is safety. We don't have a comparable "sell" for voting against. You can't get people to vote against safety. We have a higher goal, but the average voter doesn't know what the Bill of Rights is.
Sad that our poor education has lost for our children the knowledge of how the country got here.
It is politically easier for politicians to blame gun owners for violent crime than to blame criminals and incarcerate them.
 

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