This will NOT do.

[ma96782]

Awwww.......Come On Man
Have some patience.








Is that you Brandon?

Rrrright......18 non-lethal rounds fired. WTF?

Las Vegas police fired 18 non-lethal rounds at knife-wielding man before fatally shooting him

Las Vegas police deployed multiple non-lethal de-escalation tactics before fatally shooting a knife-wielding man last weekend, police say.

www.yahoo.com

Aloha, Mark

Read More

 

[Knobgoblin]

Yeah, that sounds messy all the way around.

 

[VinnieBoomBah]

There is a news video with the body cam footage down the page a bit on that link, watching it and reading the article it sounds like the officers did an outstanding job of trying to help someone in crisis while at the same time keeping themselves and the public safe. The body cam is from the officer (or one of the officers) that ended up shooting him, it shows that while some of the officers tried to deescalate the situation and help the man other officers stood ready to use lethal force the instant it was required.

Such a refreshing change from so many of the body cams we have seen recently (and no, NOT the ones you are likely thinking that I am talking about)

 

[OldBroad44]

Victim had lost his son, left home with knife saying he was going to join son. Cops knew this guy was suicidal. Clearly did everything they could to defend themselves without killing the guy. But guy wasn't having any. Forced them to kill him. I feel sorry for anyone who is put in this situation.

 

[osprey]

Bad deal all the way around. Never understood why these suicidal people need to directly affect other peeps in their deathwish? A bit selfish in my eyes.

 

[Certaindeaf]

I wonder if he shopped around, Vegas is known as the land of the one shot stop.

 

[Juniper9mm]

Bad deal all the way around. Never understood why these suicidal people need to directly affect other peeps in their deathwish? A bit selfish in my eyes.

It's to offset people calling him a 'coward' for wanting to commit suicide. This is not a healthy mind that is prone to sound reasoning about selfish or altruistic acts. The brain is a complex organ that can get sick like any other organ.

 

[Knobgoblin]

Bad deal all the way around. Never understood why these suicidal people need to directly affect other peeps in their deathwish? A bit selfish in my eyes.

Misery loves company

 

[Certaindeaf]

Misery loves company

Especially when you're strapped down and have a sledge hammer.











weee!

 

[Alexx1401]

Would be interesting to find out if he was heavily medicated. Feel bad for the LEO who had to end him. This can really mess with some peoples head when they end up having to do this.

 

[OldBroad44]

Bad deal all the way around. Never understood why these suicidal people need to directly affect other peeps in their deathwish? A bit selfish in my eyes.

It was the cop who had to kill a man he knew to be mentally deranged, not an evil bad guy criminal, whom I was feeling sorry for.

I was in a similar situation once during my young broad days. Huge guy had attacked a cluster of 8 metal trash cans late at night. I jumped out of bed, grabbed flash, and headed outdoors. Left gun behind because I was totally sure it was a car crash. I expected to render first aid of the type to keep someone from bleeding out if necessary until EMTs could get there. Figured neighbors would call 911. LE building was about 12 blocks away. But the street where I was expecting to see a two-car pileup was empty. Another sound like a car crash happened. I raised flashlight to aim across street and the beam hit a huge man kicking the he'll out of the trash cans across the street. When my flashlight lit him up he roared in rage and instantly charged and was nearly in my yard before I could react. Well above 6'. Built like a pro football or rugby player and moved with the sort of power, agility, and speed of someone who spends all day every day training at those kinds of sports. He might have been an OSU athlete, since my house was very near the OSU campus.

I ran for the house, this guy right behind me, ran through open door leaving light off for strategic reasons. It was darker indoors than out, and he would be at a disadvantage in an unfamiliar place with eyes less dark adapted than mine. No time to close door. He stopped at door, still raging. I think he was on PCP or something similar. An instant later I was standing opposite him, my 6" Ruger Security Six aimed at him. This was not someone who had planned to do a home invasion. This was someone who was temporarily insane from drugs and/or alcohol. And desire to dominate. A pile of trash cans, me, anything. But not inherently evil in the way that a man who does a planned home invasion on a young woman is. If he took one step into house I would start firing and empty the gun. He was only ten feet away. I'd have no choice... I spoke softly, politely, regretfully, "If you come in here, fella, you're gonna get yourself shot." He fell silent. Then he started crying. "Go ahead and shoot me. I dont care if I die." And he began blubbering about his girl friend having just dumped him. And repeating "Go ahead and shoot me. I don't care." But he didn't advance any farther. I felt his pain. For real. There was an actual painful sensation in my heart. I grieved for him. His pain was real, however misguided.

He withdrew to my porch and started trashing and kicking everything on the porch, still raving about girl friend. Apparently wanting to express dominance over me without getting himself killed. After a while, from inside through open door I said, conversationally, "You know, I've already called the cops. They'll be here any minute. If I were you, I'd want to get out of here before they get here." He stood still. He was suddenly apparently completely sober. He leaped the porch sidewall and was gone. I then called the cops, business number. A duty to my neighbors. There had been no time to call cops before, of course.

Its one thing to kill someone who is genuinely evil. Maybe this guy was trouble . Maybe he was in the habit of taking drugs that turned him into a raging animal and then taking it out on others. Maybe sooner or later he would kill or maim somebody. But plenty of young men go through a period of out of control behavior but grow through it and become good men and good citizens. If I had had to kill that young man, I would have grieved a long time. Maybe for the rest of my life.

 

[osprey]

This may come of as callous, but someone who is unstable, for whatever reason, threatens you or your families well being, they have crossed a line from troubled to felon and lethal force definitely is justified. It is damn near impossible for a mental health pro or a cop to ascertain their state of mind in seconds let alone a laymen like you or I. If it happened like it reads, I hope the cop or cops who had to shoot this guy can come to grips with this and continue on their career.

 

[gmerkt]

Note the began service dates of the three officers involved. Two came aboard in 2021, one in 2022. Maybe just coincidental, or this typical of police departments these days, lots of rookies, not as many long time officers?

 

[Nosferatu]

Note the began service dates of the three officers involved. Two came aboard in 2021, one in 2022. Maybe just coincidental, or this typical of police departments these days, lots of rookies, not as many long time officers?

They got pushed into retirement because they didn't want to be forced into taking an experimental medical treatment to keep their jobs.

 

[P7M13]

Sad all around.
R.I.P.

 

[salmon creek gary]

I agree it's a sad situation all the way around. But maybe it was avoidable, too. Granted, I was not there, nor was the reporter who wrote that account of the situation. Based on the information available to me, I'm going to offer a different take on that knife-wielding situation:

First off, skipping all the middle stuff, the bottom line here is that cops shot a knife-wielding man to death to keep him from attempting suicide. And that's exactly the way the family's lawyer will present the civil case.

Initially, it went OK. The man was threatening to cut himself; that's tense, but not immediately volatile. They gave him space to think the situation over (also to keep officers safe), and tried to talk him down. All good so far, but no immediate success with that. Was it time to change tactics? I think not.

What;'s wrong with trying some more talking? So long as he's only threatening to harm himself, what's to lose by continuing to talk? After all, boring him with conversation is less deadly than a knife or bullets.

So what if talking never brings him down and he eventually cuts himself? He still has not threatened anyone else. Hang back a few seconds; he'll weaken and pass out from blood loss. With the immediate threat over, it's time to step in, disarm, and render aid until EMS can jump in and save his life.

But no, that's apparentlly not what happened. Why not? All that talking and waiting was maybe going to take too much time? Shift change or choir practice is more important? Hey, let's get impatient and try to escalate the situation by popping a bit of non-lethal at him. If a little bit doesn't work, how about a lot of non-lethal? Yeah, that worked because he eventually got provoked into advancing on the officers. That's better now, right? No ambiguity anymore! There's justification now to "go lethal" and wrap this situation up so traffic can get moving and most of those officers can be released for shift change.

 

[OldBroad44]

This may come of as callous, but someone who is unstable, for whatever reason, threatens you or your families well being, they have crossed a line from troubled to felon and lethal force definitely is justified. It is damn near impossible for a mental health pro or a cop to ascertain their state of mind in seconds let alone a laymen like you or I. If it happened like it reads, I hope the cop or cops who had to shoot this guy can come to grips with this and continue on their career.

Yes of course lethal force was justified by the cops in the incident discussed or would have been by me if the guy had actually continued his charge into my home. I was not discussing whether I would defend myself using lethal force if/when my SD lines for using lethal force were crossed. Of course I would. The issue was how I would feel about actually killing an attacker depending on whether I do or don't think the attacker was sane. Would it matter to me? Yes. It would.

Actually, we humans are very good at recognizing mental abnormality. And fast too. A crazy person is potentially dangerous. We in fact tend to be fearful of all mentally abnormal people, when only a few of them are dangerous. Just like with snakes. All of them startle us, not just the dangerous ones.

It was a pretty reasonable conclusion for cops to infer guy was suicidal after having been told by his wife and someone else that he had grabbed knife and said he was going to join his son, then he charged them waving knife. It didnt require a mental health pro to evaluate that situation as well as necessary for the moment.

And when I saw a young man fighting with a bunch of garbage cans in the dead of night, I did not need a mental health pro to tell me that the guy was, at least for the moment, not in a mentally healthy well balanced copacetic condition. I recognized it instantly. And when he roared like a wild animal and charged me when all I had done was shine a flashlight on him from my own property, I did not need a mental heath pro to evaluate the situation for me and tell me to run.

 

[VinnieBoomBah]

They got pushed into retirement because they didn't want to be forced into taking an experimental medical treatment to keep their jobs.

Turns out that is literally the opposite of what happened. They only required vaccines for new hires, not existing staff

 

[Alexx1401]

I agree it's a sad situation all the way around. But maybe it was avoidable, too. Granted, I was not there, nor was the reporter who wrote that account of the situation. Based on the information available to me, I'm going to offer a different take on that knife-wielding situation:

First off, skipping all the middle stuff, the bottom line here is that cops shot a knife-wielding man to death to keep him from attempting suicide. And that's exactly the way the family's lawyer will present the civil case.

Initially, it went OK. The man was threatening to cut himself; that's tense, but not immediately volatile. They gave him space to think the situation over (also to keep officers safe), and tried to talk him down. All good so far, but no immediate success with that. Was it time to change tactics? I think not.

What;'s wrong with trying some more talking? So long as he's only threatening to harm himself, what's to lose by continuing to talk? After all, boring him with conversation is less deadly than a knife or bullets.

So what if talking never brings him down and he eventually cuts himself? He still has not threatened anyone else. Hang back a few seconds; he'll weaken and pass out from blood loss. With the immediate threat over, it's time to step in, disarm, and render aid until EMS can jump in and save his life.

But no, that's apparentlly not what happened. Why not? All that talking and waiting was maybe going to take too much time? Shift change or choir practice is more important? Hey, let's get impatient and try to escalate the situation by popping a bit of non-lethal at him. If a little bit doesn't work, how about a lot of non-lethal? Yeah, that worked because he eventually got provoked into advancing on the officers. That's better now, right? No ambiguity anymore! There's justification now to "go lethal" and wrap this situation up so traffic can get moving and most of those officers can be released for shift change.

So you admit he came at the LEO's with a knife? Yet its the Cops fault? So you would rather maybe he ran off and knifed some person walking by? Of course then you would be all over the Cops for not stopping him right? The we hate all Cops keep getting what they ask for then scream. When some kook like this is threatening you remember, don't shoot him.

 

[salmon creek gary]

So you admit he came at the LEO's with a knife? Yet its the Cops fault? So you would rather maybe he ran off and knifed some person walking by? Of course then you would be all over the Cops for not stopping him right? The we hate all Cops keep getting what they ask for then scream. When some kook like this is threatening you remember, don't shoot him.

Perhaps I was not clear enough about the point I tried to make.

First, I do not disagree that lethal force was necessary once the knife-wielding man could not be stopped from advancing on the officers. I take issue with the decision to escalate from talking to deploying non-lethals to end the situation. There was reportedly a reason why they did that, an attempt to disarm or incapacitate him. If they actually had a sound reason for escalating, that reason did not get reported.

As I said earlier, I was not there and know only what the article reported: the man was not threatening harm to anyone but himself while the officers were just talking to him. It was only after the officers' escalated from talking to non-lethal munitions that the man reportedly focused on the officers and advanced on them. Kudos to the officers for again attempting to stop him with less-lethal (tasers) before resorting to firearms.

Second, I didn't just pull my opinion out of thin air, nor do I have any antipathy toward police officers. Instead, I bumped the limited info in that news report against 30 years of LEO experience and training (including negotiation training). Based only on the news report, those officers were doing just fine trying to talk the guy down. They could have kept it up, but they didn't. Either the news article left out a good reason for escalating to non-lethal, or else the change in tactics was a misstep that is going to cost their department a bundle.