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The Revolutionary War Assault Rifle

Discussion in 'General Firearm Discussion' started by Pops1911, Jun 23, 2016.

  1. Pops1911

    Pops1911 Cinebar/Issaquah Well-Known Member

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    I am somewhat of a firearms historian. Used to shoot lots of black powder firearms. Completed two by my own hand and used them frequently - 1803 Harper's Ferry Rifle [an experimental rifle on the Lewis/Clark Voyage of Discovery] .54 cal. Also finished a .45 cal. flintlock pistol from that same era. Shot good too. After reading through all of the nauseating arguments that the 2A was never meant to include military firearms. I dug out some books and I believe I can make the argument that the Assault Rifle of its day was the flintlock smooth bore .75cal Brown Bess musket [and its many variants]. Yes it was used by British troops from Pre-Revolutionary times until about 1830. From what I could discover everybody who was anybody, civilian and military, owned one of these. When the 2A was written, apart from the American Longrifle, these were the prevailing fire arm used by just about everybody. The 2A is specifically about military weapons' use in defense situations.
    Preaching to the choir here I know. I just found this of historical interest.
     
  2. AndyinEverson

    AndyinEverson Everson, Wa. Well-Known Member

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    A lot of firearms in that time period were what might be called "Quasi-Military".
    Meaning they were for civilian use at home , on the farm ,etc ... But when folks were called up for duty it was of similar caliber , size and build of a true made for the military firearm.
    Some even were turned at the muzzle for a bayonet.
    ( kinda like a AR15 , go figure LOL )
    Many times regulations were made to the specs of the gun , the type and amount of ammo to be on hand etc...
    Many firearms were even made with older or "recycled" military parts.

    A bit closer to our times :
    In the 20's and 30's is was possible and dare I say , one was even encouraged to buy a 03 Springfield rifle thru the NRA.
    In case anyone here dosen't know , in the 20's and 30's the standard military rifle was the 03 Springfield.
    Yep you could order a issued military rifle right to your door. Not a rifle that was like a issue rifle or a copy of one ... A actual issue rifle that the military was using.
    I do not recall reading of any wide spread violence or mass murder sprees during this time when you could own a actual issue rifle with no silly modifications to its stock , magazine , or any of its other features.
    I do know violent acts and murder happened during this time. I'm just saying that the fact that you could own an issue rifle did not play a big part in this.
    I wonder what has happened to us as a nation , where we were once trusted to have a military rifle and us now?
    Andy
     
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  3. Kimber Custom

    Kimber Custom Vancouver, WA Bronze Vendor Bronze Vendor

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    1067d1359061954-assault-musket-musketscomparison.jpg

    Bayonets were the 'full auto' and cartridge boxes were 'high capacity magazines'
     
  4. Caveman Jim

    Caveman Jim West of Oly Springer Slayer 2016 Volunteer

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    What we have nowadays Andy is a people problem. One brought on by modern technology, AKA social media in everyone's pocket.
    I wish it could be reversed and us older people could die happy...
     
  5. Pops1911

    Pops1911 Cinebar/Issaquah Well-Known Member

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    My guess is 50 years of liebral/progressive indoctrination in the public education system.
    BTW- can you really say "evil black rifle/accessories" and not be labeled racist in these times?
     
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  6. Ura-Ki

    Ura-Ki Sub Light Speed Well-Known Member

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    Again, I see no distinction between Old flint locks, or modern smokeless arms of today, ALL can and do KILL! as I am sure many here can attest, 3 to 4 rounds a min from an expert rifleman is something to worry about! And Pops has it right, the founders knew exactly what they were saying all those years ago, AND the language is still just as clear now as it was then!
     
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  7. Ura-Ki

    Ura-Ki Sub Light Speed Well-Known Member

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    My "modern" inline Muzzle loader is quite capable of taking out targets at ranges of over 900 yards, and with rolled paper cartridges, I can load 4 rounds a min with out dropping the ramrod or using two of them! This front stuffer is also the first of it's kind able to use smokeless powders! Imagine what This Old Muzzle Loader could do in a fight!
     
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  8. AndyinEverson

    AndyinEverson Everson, Wa. Well-Known Member

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    I have out shot more than a few guys with scoped hunting rifles and won a case of beer from a guy who was using AR15 rifle with quite a few shooting aids things like a scope and bipod.
    This while using my Hawken rifle copy.
    It is not me , it is not my rifle ... It is because I practice with my rifle all the time.

    Back to the original point I made at one time you could get an actual current military issue rifle and no one would bat an eye.
    All with no mass shootings.
    Andy
     
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  9. Ura-Ki

    Ura-Ki Sub Light Speed Well-Known Member

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    My Grand Dad bought a Canon as surplus after ww2 and no body cared! He would shoot it off every 4th of july for years! I have it now, and it has been de activated, so as not to have any more problems with it! the nice thing is, I can re activate it if I wanted! HAHA
     
  10. Ura-Ki

    Ura-Ki Sub Light Speed Well-Known Member

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    I would love to have the option AND the right to purchase current Service Rifles! when did some one decide I have no right to own the same equipment needed to defend My Country, while they deny me the Ability to defend My self, My family, My Country, and those who deny my rights? Something not right here!
     
  11. Pops1911

    Pops1911 Cinebar/Issaquah Well-Known Member

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    Naw. Sometimes it is the NDN and the arrow. LOL
     
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  12. AndyinEverson

    AndyinEverson Everson, Wa. Well-Known Member

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    Yikes! That's what Custer said. LOL
    ( Just kidding , we all know he said So this one time the 7th Cavalry rode into a bar...)
    Andy
     
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  13. Pops1911

    Pops1911 Cinebar/Issaquah Well-Known Member

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    Custer was a dog! LOL.
     
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  14. AndyinEverson

    AndyinEverson Everson, Wa. Well-Known Member

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    Custer had many faults ... But I don't think he was quite the idiot popular media makes him out to be.
    Many things went wrong with the campaign of 1876.
    But yes indeed he was very full of himself and his ability as a man or a soldier.
    Andy
     
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  15. Osarion

    Osarion Snohomish County, WA Well-Known Member

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    Believe it was 1934 :D
     
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  16. Pops1911

    Pops1911 Cinebar/Issaquah Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I spent years reading about that summer on the High Plains. Read everything I could get my hands on dealing with Custer and the LBH. Long and short - Brevet General Custer did not have good intel and made bad tactical decisions as a result of the lack of accurate intel. I have been to the battleground more than several times and have walked all it seeing it with my own eyes.
    Still gives me the chills. I am also Native American so my heart is divided there. Like every major battle, some live to tell the tales and others change the history of a nation. Gettysburg hits me the same way too. Cold shivering chills in July standing in the Devil's Den following Hood's Texas Regiment.
     
  17. AndyinEverson

    AndyinEverson Everson, Wa. Well-Known Member

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    Wow I thought I was the only one to have that viewpoint on Custer and the campaign of '76.
    (well it sure can feel that way at times on this topic )
    Nice to learn of another like minded historian.
    Andy
     
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  18. OutlawHoss

    OutlawHoss Klamath-Siskyou Well-Known Member

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    If I remember correctly, he neglected to bring his Gatling gun! Either way, 'Custer had it coming!'
     
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  19. AndyinEverson

    AndyinEverson Everson, Wa. Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure Gatling guns would have helped much due to the terrain , nature of the battle or the overwhelming numbers of Sioux , Cheyenne and Arapahoe warriors.
    In any event ,Custer did feel that the guns would slow him down.
    To play Devil's advocate most of Custer's fights , excluding the attack of Black Kettle's band in '68 were of the "Lets follow sign and hope they stop to rest so we can get 'em" kind of fights.
    In his experience Gatling's were of no use in these previous battles.

    As stated earlier the campaign of '76 had many faults. Some of which were:
    Poor intel.
    The Indian agents lied about the number they had on the reservations.
    General Terry , the overall commander gave Custer vague orders.
    The overall "command and control" of the campaign was weak.
    The copper shell casings for the carbines often ruptured causing the case to get stuck in the breech.
    A few weeks previous to the LBH battle these same warriors whipped General Crook to a standstill , they were "highly motivated" to say the least.
    Not to forget that just 'cause the tactic you used once that worked really well , dosen't mean that it will work again.

    But back to the OP's post. At one time we could own an actual military issue gun.
    When the English marched to Concord to remove the cannon and powder that belonged to the people of Concord, the militia resisted with military issue or what passed for a "military standard" in the way of firearms.
    Andy
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2016
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  20. ogre

    ogre Vancouver, WA Well-Known Member

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    It will be 140 years tomorrow…….
     
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