The Revolutionary War Assault Rifle

[jackrv]

I remember reading somewhere that the men who stayed on Breed's(sp?) Hill in Boston aka the battle of Bunker Hill were the ones that could attach a bayonet to their rifles.

Jack

 

[Andy54Hawken]

It will be 140 years tomorrow…….

Yep ... And since we still discuss the battle , the men do died there and what they fought for sill live on in a sense.
Andy

 

[Andy54Hawken]

As to bayonets on rifles , Those are pretty uncommon in the Rev. War period.
There are some accounts of units "turning down the muzzle" to accept a bayonet, but this was as I said uncommon , I would even go as far to say rare and a rarely done modification.
Mostly Riflemen had a rifle and a tomahawk or a "rifleman's" knife.
Which movies aside was not very helpful for close combat against a foe armed with a bayonetted musket.
Also most Rifleman of the time were not given quarter or killed out of hand like at the Paoli Massacre.
Riflemen did play a part in the war Morgan's Riflemen being a big example , Timothy Murphy being another.
But Riflemen really came into their own during the War of 1812.
The battle of New Orleans and the Song The Hunters of Kentucky , being most notable.

The musket was the prime weapon at this time and it was often thought of little more than a handle for the bayonet.
Andy

 

[OutlawHoss]

I'm not sure Gatling guns would have helped much due to the terrain , nature of the battle or the overwhelming numbers of Sioux , Cheyenne and Arapahoe warriors.
In any event ,Custer did feel that the guns would slow him down.
To play Devil's advocate most of Custer's fights , excluding the attack of Black Kettle's band in '68 were of the "Lets follow sign and hope they stop to rest so we can get 'em" kind of fights.
In his experience Gatling's were of no use in these previous battles.

As stated earlier the campaign of '76 had many faults. Some of which were:
Poor intel.
The Indian agents lied about the number they had on the reservations.
General Terry , the overall commander gave Custer vague orders.
The overall "command and control" of the campaign was weak.
The copper shell casings for the carbines often ruptured causing the case to get stuck in the breech.
A few weeks previous to the LBH battle these same warriors whipped General Crook to a standstill , they were "highly motivated" to say the least.
Not to forget that just 'cause the tactic you used once that worked really well , dosen't mean that it will work again.

But back to the OP's post. At one time we could own an actual military issue gun.
When the English marched to Concord to remove the cannon and powder that belonged to the people of Concord, the militia resisted with military issue or what passed for a "military standard" in the way of firearms.
Andy

I am also one for accuracy in historical accounts, especially when modern sentiments and values are used to re-describe history, which is the constant foe of the historian. When I was younger I had a much better working knowledge of the indian campaigns post-civil war, but it's fallen out of use because there's few folk to talk about it. Being native, I have a bias, and maybe a different m.o. when it comes to studying American history, but I make an effort to understand the players in the context of their world view, and welcome people with well-based opinions and possession of substantiated facts. With the predominant histories being that of the victors, who are still the dominant paradigm, I think there needs to be (or I need to) focus on the under-reported side, that being in this case the native narrative.
Having mixed ancestry, both pre-columbian native american as well as various hispanic and european, I find I come to study history as I explore the vast amount of time my ancestors have been on this continent. My first european ancestors came here in ca. 1611 at Jamestown colony, so I have 400+ years to look into just on that track alone. I'm a son of the American Revolution, as well as the Confederacy, have familial links to the pre- and post- civil war world of the South. Most recently, I'm a direct descendant of Dust Bowl Okies. In fact, if you have seen Ken Burn's "The Dust Bowl," my family is one of featured families that he interviews (The Foresters).

Anywho, I'm rambling, but it's hard not to be proud!

 

[Andy54Hawken]

Excellent post OutlawHoss.
It is a crime when "historians" distort the facts to fit modern values and outlooks.
They rob the event and people who lived it of their voice.
It is also unfair to place a 21st century spin or judgment to someone who lived in a different era.
They can not defend themselves nor explain their actions
Seeing a historical event from all sides is the key to understanding it.
Once you understand events for all sides you might be able to understand and even "feel" the people who were there.
Andy

 

[Ura-Ki]

One "other" area I find so fascinating is the early days of the Revenue Cutter Service, that was the beginnings of what would become the U.S. Coast Guard! Specifically the Swift Boat Crews in place to help blockade southern ports and back waters to deny the South from being supplied! These were small, shallow draft "racing Sloops" armed with a 6 to 8 ponder on a turn table mount and usually also had a chaser mounted at the bows! The Crew were really keen on adapting to the situations and modifying the boats with bigger and longer range guns, and the best small arms they could get there hands on! These guys were amazing in what they did and how they did it! Later, this would serve them well with the opening of the Alaska territories and enforcement of some of the first trade limits, and wild life preservation laws!

 

[OutlawHoss]

The best single volume history of the Civil War (by not just my opinion) is MacPherson's "The Battle Cry of Freedom" I highly recommend it. As a follow up, Foner's "Reconstruction: America's Unfinished Revolution" which although he studied under preeminent civil war scholars, has gone back and incorporated a lot more perspectives, including a stronger narrative of the emancipated freemen which really is an incredible expansion on previously accepted models and theories on the failures and successes of Reconstruction and it's policies, e.g. the focus on loss of Lincoln and Andrew Johnson's inadequacies, etc.
MacPherson's book has incredible accounts of the blockade of the southern ports, and the blockade runners who had some great successes as well as losses, and the nations who were supplying the south as they, for a while (the French and British) played both sides as they needed the southern products, mainly cotton and tobacco, and would trade in materiel support to the CSA.

 

[Ura-Ki]

I find the entire era of early America to be fascinating! We Americans were pretty adept at fighting unconventionally and oft changed the rules to suit for a desired outcome! We were extremely gifted at designing and building weapons and defenses as well as devising tactics that would throw off an enemy! Something our armed forces are still very gifted at today! While My personal focus is Sea based in the era that saw the conversion from sail to steam power, I appreciate the entire "building" of America and its history!

 

[Ura-Ki]

Macpherson's book is one of THE best reads from that era!

 

[OutlawHoss]

I find the entire era of early America to be fascinating! We Americans were pretty adept at fighting unconventionally and oft changed the rules to suit for a desired outcome! We were extremely gifted at designing and building weapons and defenses as well as devising tactics that would throw off an enemy! Something our armed forces are still very gifted at today! While My personal focus is Sea based in the era that saw the conversion from sail to steam power, I appreciate the entire "building" of America and its history!

Roger's Rangers, in the Revolutionary era, (the father of the modern Army Rangers), was one of the first recognized 'Spec Ops' units which incorporated what Rogers learned from Native warriors in the various pre-revolutioanary French British (and some Spanish) who all 'used' natives in their continental campaigns against each other. Prior to the Jominian and Clausewitzian conventional european warfare (also called Napoleonic Warfare) asymmetric warfare was the norm, not the exception, but with the devlopment of the nation-state, it was considered a hallmark of being civilized to fight in what came to be called conventional warfare. Of course that started to change after the civil war, into the 20th century.

A great book which talks about the unconventional history of early
America, is "Gone to Croatan: Origins of North American Dropout Culture" which is edited by a friend of a friend, and recently back in print. There is a lot of corollary contributions and 'cultural eddies' of American culture that is covered in the book, I highly recommend it.

 

[Ura-Ki]

Thanks outlawhoss, will be adding that to my library! Sounds like just my thing! Any thing on the history of Special warfare is definitely on my shelf of must read's!

 

[OutlawHoss]

Thanks outlawhoss, will be adding that to my library! Sounds like just my thing! Any thing on the history of Special warfare is definitely on my shelf of must read's!

Okay, here's a must read for you if you're into the history of 'guerilla warfare': "Invisible Armies: An Epic History of Guerilla Warfare from Ancient Times to the Present" by Max Boot. It's the best comprehensive book on the subject to date. I also have dozens of books on the subject in my library. If you want, I'll pm you my list in a few days (when I'm at home) to see if there are some titles that interest you. Let me know!

 

[Ura-Ki]

Okay, here's a must read for you if you're into the history of 'guerilla warfare': "Invisible Armies: An Epic History of Guerilla Warfare from Ancient Times to the Present" by Max Boot. It's the best comprehensive book on the subject to date. I also have dozens of books on the subject in my library. If you want, I'll pm you my list in a few days (when I'm at home) to see if there are some titles that interest you. Let me know!

Yes please! And thanks in advance! Always looking to expand my library!

 

[etrain16]

Roger's Rangers, in the Revolutionary era, (the father of the modern Army Rangers), was one of the first recognized 'Spec Ops' units which incorporated what Rogers learned from Native warriors in the various pre-revolutioanary French British (and some Spanish) who all 'used' natives in their continental campaigns against each other. Prior to the Jominian and Clausewitzian conventional european warfare (also called Napoleonic Warfare) asymmetric warfare was the norm, not the exception, but with the devlopment of the nation-state, it was considered a hallmark of being civilized to fight in what came to be called conventional warfare. Of course that started to change after the civil war, into the 20th century.

A great book which talks about the unconventional history of early
America, is "Gone to Croatan: Origins of North American Dropout Culture" which is edited by a friend of a friend, and recently back in print. There is a lot of corollary contributions and 'cultural eddies' of American culture that is covered in the book, I highly recommend it.

I don't know if you're a fan of television shows, but by any chance are you familiar with the AMC series "Turn". It's about the Revolutionary war and the spy rings that operated on both sides. Robert Rogers and his Queen's Rangers (a later adaptation by Rogers of his "Robert's Rangers") are featured pretty prominently in that show.

 

[Ura-Ki]

I love that show! Just started to follow it, but have been going back to watch all the episodes! Really neat show!

 

[etrain16]

I love that show! Just started to follow it, but have been going back to watch all the episodes! Really neat show!

Awesome show, we've been fans from Season 1, one of our favorites. We're just hoping it comes back for Season 4 as Season 3 is finishing up with some big events.

 

[OutlawHoss]

I've seen the first and second seasons, and like it. I generally wait until a season of any show finishes so I can watch it in large batches; that way I don't lose the plot or story line, like when I try to watch them with sometimes weeks in between episodes.
Will definitely be catching up on 'Turn' when I can!

 

[Diamondback]

I find the entire era of early America to be fascinating! We Americans were pretty adept at fighting unconventionally and oft changed the rules to suit for a desired outcome! We were extremely gifted at designing and building weapons and defenses as well as devising tactics that would throw off an enemy! Something our armed forces are still very gifted at today! While My personal focus is Sea based in the era that saw the conversion from sail to steam power, I appreciate the entire "building" of America and its history!

Interesting... my "day gig" is as a historical consultant to a wargaming publisher with a line of Napoleonic miniature ships in their portfolio.

One of my pet projects for them, despite being pre-Napoleonic, will see Bonhomme Richard added to the catalog sometime between Christmas and next year.

Sorry, would have taken this to PM, but Da Box Is Full.

 

[Ura-Ki]

Woops, will get it cleared out! Have a look at the U.S.C.G. Eagle, and the Philly from that era! I know it's way later, but the early 1900's Coastal Monitors are also fascinating! My own pet project is the 6 Monitors built and deployed off the west coast during the early days of WW 1 and again during WW 2! There is very little if any history of these ships, I only know from an old neighbor who served as a gunner on one of them during WW 2! He had several pictures hanging on his wall in there home, but that and his stories were all I had to go on!

 

[etrain16]

One "other" area I find so fascinating is the early days of the Revenue Cutter Service, that was the beginnings of what would become the U.S. Coast Guard! Specifically the Swift Boat Crews in place to help blockade southern ports and back waters to deny the South from being supplied! These were small, shallow draft "racing Sloops" armed with a 6 to 8 ponder on a turn table mount and usually also had a chaser mounted at the bows! The Crew were really keen on adapting to the situations and modifying the boats with bigger and longer range guns, and the best small arms they could get there hands on! These guys were amazing in what they did and how they did it! Later, this would serve them well with the opening of the Alaska territories and enforcement of some of the first trade limits, and wild life preservation laws!

My great grandfather served with the Revenue Cutter Service. He was orphaned after losing his parents and grandparents by the age of 14. He headed off from Denmark as a merchant seaman, eventually sail maker, almost dying in a shipwreck somewhere off the coast of New England. After that, he emigrated to the United States and served with the Revenue Cutters for a time (we have almost no info on his time there), then during WW1 joined and served with the US Army. Later in life he took a role on as a Boatswain on a missionary ship that made trips up to Alaska for the Apostolic Faith Church. He has a very interesting life story, some of which did get written down, thankfully.