the classifieds need a sticky about selling to non-residents

[coosbaycreep]

There should be a sticky at the top of the classifieds for guns that says that you can't buy or sell a gun to someone out of state without an FFL. I know this comes up all the time, but it's still a problem, and I don't see anything posted in the classified rules that says anything about it either, so if there already is a sticky for it somewhere, it's not obvious (at least not to me anyway).

This is the PM I got from someone in WA this morning; "so you come up here near seattle area, wondering if you would take 300 for it. i will be in vancouver wa tommarrow. thanks".

I don't know if the dude knows it's illegal, or just doesn't give a crap. (I also find it annoying that he would think I would drive 600+ miles to do an illegal transaction, and also take less money than I'm asking for it, but that's besides the point).

I get replies for illegal transactions fairly often, and I see people replying to other people's ads trying to do the same thing quite often as well. I don't know how much of it is ignorance of the law, and how much is just not caring, but I think a sticky would go a long way (hopefully) in cutting down on the out of state crackheads.

rant over

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[Cougfan2]

+1 Good idea. No matter how many times the topic gets covered in different threads, it keeps coming back up.

 

[Trlsmn]

Unfortunately you'll find a lot of people don't give a crap.

 

[gunnoob75]

Unfortunately you'll find a lot of people don't give a crap.

Working hard every day to improve the quality of use on these forums.

 

[Trlsmn]

Working hard every day to improve the quality of use on these forums.

Not sure what that means?

 

[Mr. Black]

I am a little curious why the classifieds section isn't broken up into the different states..

the people who aren't willing to read the rules and stickies might not click on the listings for anything outside their respective state...

Though I am sure that this topic has come up before... What is the reasoning for not dividing up the classifieds section?..

 

[Trlsmn]

I posted a message to Joey in the mod section about making a pop up box with information about illegal cross boarder FTF transactions that would pop up automatically when posting or replying to a classified Ad. This box would require a check off that would state the user has read and understands the information.

 

[derek myers]

I'm all for being legal and even though I or others may not agree with all of the gov rules and regs its up to the individual(s) to follow them. You don't look in Auto trader and see a bunch of notations about driving the speed limit or that for us WA residents to make sure we pay our sales tax even on vehicles we buy out of state from private parties.

A WA res. can go to an Oregon ffl Dealer and leave with a long gun in 15 minutes or less.........no finger prints no CCP. How many guns are sold at garage sales? How many people in the shooting community/military/operator community as well buy a weapon hand gun or otherwise for their father, grandson, nephew, niece etc. Kinda ruins the suprise to have them open an empty box under the tree stating their present is at Gun dealer X. How many people have brought how a weapon gained in combat as a gift relative/fellow soldier..........how many of us have had a Grandfather or Uncle give us their old GI 45 or a prized German Luger.

Frankly I think the firearms laws are cloudy and not at all clear in many cases and or they change. I used to feel kinda bad living in SW WA and knowing that living here in close proximity to NW OR alot of cross border business goes on........I felt less bad when buying a weapon from a smaller Oregon town and telling the seller to check with his local Police Chief and his Chief stating a law about being a private seller selling less than 6 weapons per year blah blah. Heck I called the guy myself to hear it and make sure I wouldn't get in trouble.

Anyway my 2 cents........I'm for following the law but this website can't be responsable for what people who visit here do. Personally I am more concerned over drunk drivers than a couple good citizens swapping firearms but thats just me.

 

[Trlsmn]

I agree and I wish the laws weren't the way they are but since they are we have a duty at the minimum to inform buyers that may not know the laws, and when posted in a open medium like a forum we have an obligation to police such activities.

What people do outside of NWFA is not a concern.

I look at it like this, if you were a Fed in charge of gun law enforcement what better place to find law breakers than on an open forum with people stating there intentions to break the law right out in the open? Is it possible? Yes it's very possible that the Feds would patrol a gun forum! If I was a local Fed it's the first place I would look!

A post of such mentioned here could conceivably be enough evidence for a search warrant.

We, as in all of us members, have an obligation to teach the new guys these laws just as others have taught us these laws.

The fact is there has never been a gun made worth going to jail for, and that small amount of money made in a cross boarder illegal gun sale could end up costing everything you own and your freedom. Who would sell there freedom for the small amount of profit on a gun? Well from what I've seen many people would and it's a damn shame.

 

[derek myers]

Well put-the sad thing is to think that all that is wrong with this world at present that a Fed Agent may be sitting at a computer searching gun sites trying to bust somebody for a Christmas present is pretty sick. What is sicker is that said agent if you are correct would to the trouble of search warrant and so on. Now I could see if like you said someone was motivated by $$ and trying to break laws by "running guns" etc. I personally would want that handled. But it bothers me to think that somebody is hunting down a couple guys who live 50 miles apart and buy/sell a $500 or $1000 rifle that may have been owned for 5 years.........obviously not a business situation.

I guess it bothers me more because its a "selective" or maybe "elective" process. I have seen ads posts in state newspapers advertising an estate sale that had numerous guns in it. The estate was handled by an Attorney who was present at the sale. I purchased a couple weapons.....nobody wanted to see even my DL or BC and when I asked for some "legal paperwork" to transport said merchandise I was told by the attorney "son(I'm 42 so get his age) I've been doing this estate law for 30 years and never have had any special firearms paperwork........trust me you are legal"

I mean when attorneys and chief's of Police are either not bothering or not sweating the laws its sucks when some law abiding tax paper would get popped over a personal gun sale.

I know I am ranting here but when I used to see the commercials for "you drive drunk the least you'll lose is..........." blah blah blah. I know of a guy who lives in WA and has had either 11 or 13 DUI's can't recall which. Had plenty of money and had 8-9 Dui's prior to having a breathalyzer put on his truck.NEVER LOST HIS LICENSE. He did get to where he was only allowed to drive for work purposes. He was a supervisor of large NW paving company hired by the state. Would hit a 7-11 about 8am get a big gulp of coke or 2 and pour in about 10-12 oz of bourbon and drink and drive all day 5 days a week. Thats a freaking crime........why doesn't ATF work more on the A&T and law off of the F letter for awhile.

Thank you to those who lasted through this rant-Derek

 

[ZachS]

I have only ever been investigated by the ATF for a potential "A" crime....

 

[Trlsmn]

Well put-the sad thing is to think that all that is wrong with this world at present that a Fed Agent may be sitting at a computer searching gun sites trying to bust somebody for a Christmas present is pretty sick. What is sicker is that said agent if you are correct would to the trouble of search warrant and so on. Now I could see if like you said someone was motivated by $$ and trying to break laws by "running guns" etc. I personally would want that handled. But it bothers me to think that somebody is hunting down a couple guys who live 50 miles apart and buy/sell a $500 or $1000 rifle that may have been owned for 5 years.........obviously not a business situation.

I guess it bothers me more because its a "selective" or maybe "elective" process. I have seen ads posts in state newspapers advertising an estate sale that had numerous guns in it. The estate was handled by an Attorney who was present at the sale. I purchased a couple weapons.....nobody wanted to see even my DL or BC and when I asked for some "legal paperwork" to transport said merchandise I was told by the attorney "son(I'm 42 so get his age) I've been doing this estate law for 30 years and never have had any special firearms paperwork........trust me you are legal"

I mean when attorneys and chief's of Police are either not bothering or not sweating the laws its sucks when some law abiding tax paper would get popped over a personal gun sale.

I know I am ranting here but when I used to see the commercials for "you drive drunk the least you'll lose is..........." blah blah blah. I know of a guy who lives in WA and has had either 11 or 13 DUI's can't recall which. Had plenty of money and had 8-9 Dui's prior to having a breathalyzer put on his truck.NEVER LOST HIS LICENSE. He did get to where he was only allowed to drive for work purposes. He was a supervisor of large NW paving company hired by the state. Would hit a 7-11 about 8am get a big gulp of coke or 2 and pour in about 10-12 oz of bourbon and drink and drive all day 5 days a week. Thats a freaking crime........why doesn't ATF work more on the A&T and law off of the F letter for awhile.

Thank you to those who lasted through this rant-Derek

A long rant but it says a lot of what many people are thinking. To add to that, laws that I really hate are when something is legal in one state and illegal in another state. I mean we are all Americans right? Why should some Americans be allowed to do something and some not be allowed to do the same thing because of an imaginary line? That kind of double standard bugs me.

 

[derek myers]

Its a good point......different laws in different places etc. Remember back when commited a crime and just had to race to the state line and all the cops had to stop chasing you!!

I understand different states/communities and their rights make their own laws as long as they follow the constitution. But you are right things like bearing arms and even the ability for adults to consume alcohol are taken away in places. Isn't having a "dry town" kind of infringing on peoples rights? But its majority rule I guess.........I don't know why any dedicated shooter would live in CA............its embarrassing. California is our #1 agriculture state in the whole US........not Texas or Iowa.........CA! And you know N. Ca has alot ranchers and hunters.........so does Sacremento! The fact is Los Angeles is their state Capital. Has anyone seen the HE-Man grip you have to put on an AR15 is that state???

Off topic here but the John Day county sheriff from Oregon coming to Vancouver with his own fingerprint machine and handing out OR concealed carry permits to WA residents without them taking the class residents have to?? Is that techniquely legal........I guess so?? But I'm not sure but I am pretty sure if it fits a loophole it goes against the "morale fiber" of the Oregon law...........and I admire the man for it...........I LOVE IT.

I think the whole firearms thing is kinda messy-I mean I can ship a rifle to a fellow WA resident who lives 300 miles from me but I can't do a FTF with an OR resident who lives 50 miles from me who I can meet, see what he drives, right down his ODL and have him sign a bill of sale.........thats nuts.

No I do NOT think this board should or has to babysit sellers/buyers by breaking up sale sections by state you live in. I am really new to this site....I am a 5 year user of another large 36,000 member national site and was referred here. On national sites you have guys from all 50 states and several foreign counties buying and selling plus you guys who currently deployed and everything there manages to go down legally.

Derek

 

[ZeroRing]

No I do NOT think this board should or has to babysit sellers/buyers by breaking up sale sections by state you live in. I am really new to this site....I am a 5 year user of another large 36,000 member national site and was referred here. On national sites you have guys from all 50 states and several foreign counties buying and selling plus you guys who currently deployed and everything there manages to go down legally.

That last little bit is a BIG assumption!

But I'm with you on the rest.

 

[badclam]

I posted a message to Joey in the mod section about making a pop up box with information about illegal cross boarder FTF transactions that would pop up automatically when posting or replying to a classified Ad. This box would require a check off that would state the user has read and understands the information.

Come on for Pete's sake. We don't need more babysitters and useless formalities. It's up to the individual's to know the laws.
Post it once at the top of the classifieds that all interstate transactions must go through an FFL.Checking a box over and over isn't going to do anything but waste time and space.

 

[Trlsmn]

Come on for Pete's sake. We don't need more babysitters and useless formalities. It's up to the individual's to know the laws.
Post it once at the top of the classifieds that all interstate transactions must go through an FFL.Checking a box over and over isn't going to do anything but waste time and space.

Yes it's up to the the individuals to know the law for there own sake, but if it is posted here, and crossboarder FTF talk does get posted here on a regular and continuous basis, then we have a duty to do something about it for the sake of the forum.

 

[badclam]

Yes it's up to the the individuals to know the law for there own sake, but if it is posted here, and crossboarder FTF talk does get posted here on a regular and continuous basis, then we have a duty to do something about it for the sake of the forum.

My belief,correct or not, is that most of the people wanting to do interstate sales without an FFL are knowledgeable of the laws. I think,again my opinion from people I've dealt with,that these are mostly people trying to get around doing it legally because of the time,money or hassle of it. No amount of rules in this forum are going to stop willful law breakers.
My $.02

 

[ZeroRing]

My belief,correct or not, is that most of the people wanting to do interstate sales without an FFL are knowledgeable of the laws. I think,again my opinion from people I've dealt with,that these are mostly people trying to get around doing it legally because of the time,money or hassle of it. No amount of rules in this forum are going to stop willful law breakers.
My $.02

That may be but if they knowingly post anything eluding to possible participation in illegal activity (for whatever reason) on this site, then they can expect to get called on it... and shown the door if necessary.

 

[badclam]

That may be but if they knowingly post anything eluding to possible participation in illegal activity (for whatever reason) on this site, then they can expect to get called on it... and shown the door if necessary.

Well that of course goes without saying. My point is that it should be posted at the top of the classifieds that"federal law requires all interstate gun sales to go through an FFL" Any more than that isn't going to stop those intent on breaking the law.

 

[pokerace]

[/Yes it's up to the the individuals to know the law for there own sake, but if it is posted here, and crossboarder FTF talk does get posted here on a regular and continuous basis, then we have a duty to do something about it for the sake of the forum.
__________________QUOTE]

what you want more interference the fed does enough, we don't need some blank on the forum to police us. The forum members have NO business policing or interfering with the sale or anything of other members.