Taking a gun to prison

[97321]

I have both the OR CHL and WA CPL. I read the RCW as you do. Areas of ingress and egress open to the general public are exempted from the exclusions of RCW 9.41.300 1(a). As you were seeking access to restricted areas, of course, nobody will argue the need to leave your pistol behind. However, the lock box described under RCW 9.41.300 1(b) cannot be inferred to apply to all sections of RCW 9.41.300, only subsection 1(b) which pertains to areas of (and/or in support of) court proceedings. I don't read that the jail has an obligation under statute to provide you with a lock box. (Aside: seems like it would be wise policy to provide one, but that is at the discretion of the individual administrators for each prison/jail).
Without having a lock box, it would be within the prison's rights to prohibit pistols from being left in a vehicle on prison grounds. Therefore, I interpret that the prison personnel were acting in compliance with a policy that has sound legal backing and is justified by a reasonable argument (don't want guns vulnerable to pilfering by bad people).
May I suggest that the best course of action is to write a letter to the prison administrator respectfully requesting that they review their policy on this matter, and asking that they implement a policy for receiving and storing pistols in a manner similar to that described under RCW 9.41.300 1(b).
Respectfully submitted ...

 

[The B]

I have both the OR CHL and WA CPL. I read the RCW as you do. Areas of ingress and egress open to the general public are exempted from the exclusions of RCW 9.41.300 1(a). As you were seeking access to restricted areas, of course, nobody will argue the need to leave your pistol behind. However, the lock box described under RCW 9.41.300 1(b) cannot be inferred to apply to all sections of RCW 9.41.300, only subsection 1(b) which pertains to areas of (and/or in support of) court proceedings. I don't read that the jail has an obligation under statute to provide you with a lock box. (Aside: seems like it would be wise policy to provide one, but that is at the discretion of the individual administrators for each prison/jail).
Without having a lock box, it would be within the prison's rights to prohibit pistols from being left in a vehicle on prison grounds. Therefore, I interpret that the prison personnel were acting in compliance with a policy that has sound legal backing and is justified by a reasonable argument (don't want guns vulnerable to pilfering by bad people).
May I suggest that the best course of action is to write a letter to the prison administrator respectfully requesting that they review their policy on this matter, and asking that they implement a policy for receiving and storing pistols in a manner similar to that described under RCW 9.41.300 1(b).
Respectfully submitted ...

sounds like pretty sound reasoning... best post of the thread.

/thread

 

[damien8246]

Got an E-mail back from the Superintendent a couple days ago. Here it is copied from my e-mail..

November 28, 2011

Mr. Michael Furfaro,

Thank you for visiting the Washington Corrections Center for Women. I hope your visit and experience at the facility was pleasant. Our facility staff is committed to adherence to the RCW, to ensure the safety of the general public, staff, visitors, and offenders; all of whom we proudly serve.
You cite, in part, various RCWs within your email and request clarification, making sure that all laws and rules are being followed and to know what needs to be done by you the next time you come for a visit. Therefore, I am providing you the following RCWs as clarification in response to your request:
RCW 9.94.049 - "Correctional institution" and "state correctional institution" defined.
1) For the purposes of this chapter, the term "correctional institution" means any place designated by law for the keeping of persons held in custody under process of law, or under lawful arrest, including state prisons, county and local jails, and other facilities operated by the department of corrections or local governmental units primarily for the purposes of punishment, correction, or rehabilitation following conviction of a criminal offense.
2) For the purposes of RCW 9.94.043 and 9.94.045, "state correctional institution" means all state correctional facilities under the supervision of the secretary of the department of corrections used solely for the purpose of confinement of convicted felons.

RCW 9.94.047 - Posting of perimeter of premises of institutions covered by RCW 9.94.040 through 9.94.049.
The perimeter of the premises of correctional institutions covered by RCW 9.94.040 through 9.94.049 shall be posted at reasonable intervals to alert the public as to the existence of RCW 9.94.040 through 9.94.049.
RCW 9.94.043 - Deadly weapons — Possession on premises by person not a prisoner — Penalty.


A person, other than a person serving a sentence in a penal institution of this state, is guilty of possession of contraband on the premises of a state correctional institution in the first degree if, without authorization to do so, the person knowingly possesses or has under his or her control a deadly weapon on or in the buildings or adjacent grounds subject to the care, control, or supervision of a state correctional institution. Deadly weapon is used as defined in RCW 9A.04.110: PROVIDED, That such correctional buildings, grounds, or property are properly posted pursuant to RCW 9.94.047, and such person has knowingly entered thereon: PROVIDED FURTHER, That the provisions of this section do not apply to a person licensed pursuant to RCW 9.41.070 who, upon entering the correctional institution premises, proceeds directly along an access road to the administration building and promptly checks his or her firearm(s) with the appropriate authorities. The person may reclaim his or her firearm(s) upon leaving, but he or she must immediately and directly depart from the premises.
Possession of contraband on the premises of a state correctional institution in the first degree is a class B felony.
RCW 9A.04.110 - Definitions.
(6) "Deadly weapon" means any explosive or loaded or unloaded firearm, and shall include any other weapon, device, instrument, article, or substance, including a "vehicle" as defined in this section, which, under the circumstances in which it is used, attempted to be used, or threatened to be used, is readily capable of causing death or substantial bodily harm;

In closing, I appreciate your willingness to follow staff directions pertaining to our deadly weapons guidelines. Thank you, again, for visiting the Washington Corrections Center for Women and supporting our commitment to maintaining family support of the offender.

Jane Parnell,
Superintendent


So, she states other RCW's proving that firearms aren't allowed on the premises. I see where that is actually a law now. You learn something new everyday. BUT it also states that anyone licensed to carry concealed can check their firearms in with the proper authorities. So she proved my point in her reply. Don't know if she intended to or not, but she did.

I sent her an e-mail back stating I have my CPL and that section should apply to me and asked for further clarification. We'll see what happens.

 

[97321]

Looks like you just need to find out what their admin procedures are for checking in your firearm. Well done.

 

[damien8246]

Got another e-mail back today saying that I had good points and that she is going to do some digging around and make sure they are within the law. I have a feeling that I will be able to check in my gun next time I go for a visit.

Feels good to change a policy that has been wrong for so long, and doing it on my own with a few e-mails.

 

[The B]

rock on.

 

[Riot]

*update*

Memo just put out to all prisons...visitors are not allowed to "carry, check in or secure" any firearm on DOC facility grounds. For whatever reason I cannot post a copy of this memo as an attachment from my work computer.

This memo was posted from Deputy Director of Prisons (Dan Pacholke) who asked for clarification from the AG's office.

 

[MikeSettles]

"RCW 9.41.300
Weapons prohibited in certain places — Local laws and ordinances — Exceptions — Penalty.

(1) It is unlawful for any person to enter the following places when he or she knowingly possesses or knowingly has under his or her control a weapon:

(a) The restricted access areas of a jail, or of a law enforcement facility, or any place used for the confinement of a person (i) arrested for, charged with, or convicted of an offense, (ii) held for extradition or as a material witness, or (iii) otherwise confined pursuant to an order of a court, except an order under chapter 13.32A or 13.34 RCW. Restricted access areas do not include common areas of egress or ingress open to the general public;

(b) Those areas in any building which are used in connection with court proceedings, including courtrooms, jury rooms, judge's chambers, offices and areas used to conduct court business, waiting areas, and corridors adjacent to areas used in connection with court proceedings. The restricted areas do not include common areas of ingress and egress to the building that is used in connection with court proceedings, when it is possible to protect court areas without restricting ingress and egress to the building. The restricted areas shall be the minimum necessary to fulfill the objective of this subsection (1)(b)."


"RCW 9.94.049 - “Correctional institution” and “state correctional institution” defined.
1) For the purposes of this chapter, the term “correctional institution” means any place designated by law for the keeping of persons held in custody under process of law, or under lawful arrest, including state prisons, county and local jails, and other facilities operated by the department of corrections or local governmental units primarily for the purposes of punishment, correction, or rehabilitation following conviction of a criminal offense.
2) For the purposes of RCW 9.94.043 and 9.94.045, “state correctional institution” means all state correctional facilities under the supervision of the secretary of the department of corrections used solely for the purpose of confinement of convicted felons.

RCW 9.94.043 - Deadly weapons — Possession on premises by person not a prisoner — Penalty." Goes on to say that CPL-holder can bring one onto the premises, and they will secure it.

Seems that there is a conflict in statute: A court will have to decide. Or the legislature will have to straighten it out (don't hold your breath).

The memo from Pacholke seems a too easy answer: "We don't want to figure it out, so we'll just say no".

Regarding all of the posts that I saw which recommended "just leave it at home": What part of being legally armed while travelling to/from do they (the facility directors) get to regulate? That's why RCW 9.41.300 says that they MUST provide a place to lock it up - we musn't let them enforce one statute while ignoring another for their own convenience.

 

[Riot]

The memo from Pacholke seems a too easy answer: "We don't want to figure it out, so we'll just say no".

Regarding all of the posts that I saw which recommended "just leave it at home": What part of being legally armed while travelling to/from do they (the facility directors) get to regulate? That's why RCW 9.41.300 says that they MUST provide a place to lock it up - we musn't let them enforce one statute while ignoring another for their own convenience.

Did you notice the verbage though...

FYI I figured it out (finally).

 

[deen_ad]

The Clark County Sheriff's office didn't allow carrying even in the public areas till just a short time ago, nor would they provide a lock box even though the law was very clear on it. Guess it took some public pressure to get it changed.

 

[MikeSettles]

Did you notice the verbage though...

FYI I figured it out (finally).

View attachment 41342

Riot: Not sure what you mean.

Attorney General "opinion" is not "statute".
And this one, because it's obvious that there are two statutes (somewhat) in conflict, will have to be untangled by the courts or the legislature.
Maybe it's time to engage our elected representatives.

 

[Riot]

Riot: Not sure what you mean.

All the letter is saying is that the Department of Corrections doesn't want people to show up at their public access points carrying firearms. Nothing in the letter prohibits a person from lawfully possessing a firearm, they just don't want people attempting to "check in" a gun anywhere.

Leave it locked up in your car when visiting your local jail or prison, that's all the letter is saying without outright saying it (remember, it is directed at the prison wardens- not the gun owners).

All facilities should actually have an area outside of the main control point to secure anything that a visitor wished to secure before entering the prison/jail facility before going inside (i.e. like a bus station locker) for people who can't secure the firearm in their vehicle (i.e. because they took the bus, walked, etc.). I actually see why the Department of Corrections wants to stay clear of handling private property- let alone a firearm. People can (and will) claim that the item(s) were lost or damaged during possession. However, a station outside of DOC's control will leave the liability back in the individual's hands. Kinda like a point where there is just a bunch of lockers and a list of things not allowed in prison (drugs, alcohol, weapons, etc., etc.). If you take it in past that point it is on you....

Just a thought. There are always ways to get around these rulings so that everyone is happy. DOC sees this is a safety concern and a liability while you might see it as hindering your rights. There are ways where everyone is happy in this is all...

 

[MikeSettles]

All the letter is saying is that the Department of Corrections doesn't want people to show up at their public access points carrying firearms. Nothing in the letter prohibits a person from lawfully possessing a firearm, they just don't want people attempting to "check in" a gun anywhere.

Leave it locked up in your car when visiting your local jail or prison, that's all the letter is saying without outright saying it (remember, it is directed at the prison wardens- not the gun owners).

All facilities should actually have an area outside of the main control point to secure anything that a visitor wished to secure before entering the prison/jail facility before going inside (i.e. like a bus station locker) for people who can't secure the firearm in their vehicle (i.e. because they took the bus, walked, etc.). I actually see why the Department of Corrections wants to stay clear of handling private property- let alone a firearm. People can (and will) claim that the item(s) were lost or damaged during possession. However, a station outside of DOC's control will leave the liability back in the individual's hands. Kinda like a point where there is just a bunch of lockers and a list of things not allowed in prison (drugs, alcohol, weapons, etc., etc.). If you take it in past that point it is on you....

Just a thought. There are always ways to get around these rulings so that everyone is happy. DOC sees this is a safety concern and a liability while you might see it as hindering your rights. There are ways where everyone is happy in this is all...

Gotcha.

I still maintain that the statute REQUIRES them to have the lockers, or at least some way to check firearms - it's plain on it's face. (Sort of like "shall not be infringed" and "shall not be impaired" - but we know how THAT goes . . .)

 

[bikejunkie]

I've never been to a prison, nor do I plan on it- I think by the letter of the law what I would do would be illegal, but I would just put my pistol in the hidden lock box in my truck prior to driving on the grounds, and remove it after leaving. If it's never in sight I doubt anyone would ever look. I agree it would be good if they had a gun check, but it's not surprising either the prisons just want to punt and not deal with it at all by having an umbrella "no" policy. I guess for me I prefer that nobody ever know I'm carrying- ever and If I know I'm going someplace like that, to me it's not a big deal to stash my pistol in the lock box I have provided for myself- I don't want anyone else handling my gun anyway

 

[deen_ad]

Gotcha.

I still maintain that the statute REQUIRES them to have the lockers, or at least some way to check firearms - it's plain on it's face. (Sort of like "shall not be infringed" and "shall not be impaired" - but we know how THAT goes . . .)

I agree, same as the Clark County Sheriffs office or the Court House. Instead they call an officer and he takes possession of the firearm. I'm sure they run the numbers on it too!

 

[Swedish K]

I've never been to a prison, nor do I plan on it- I think by the letter of the law what I would do would be illegal, but I would just put my pistol in the hidden lock box in my truck prior to driving on the grounds, and remove it after leaving. If it's never in sight I doubt anyone would ever look. I agree it would be good if they had a gun check, but it's not surprising either the prisons just want to punt and not deal with it at all by having an umbrella "no" policy. I guess for me I prefer that nobody ever know I'm carrying- ever and If I know I'm going someplace like that, to me it's not a big deal to stash my pistol in the lock box I have provided for myself- I don't want anyone else handling my gun anyway

I'd say that 90%+ of the time this would probably work - I do recall an attorney who went to visit his client at one of the CA prisons after spending the weekend in Napa wine country - the prison had intercepted a message that someone was going to smuggle in contraband to an inmate so they were on "high alert" at that facility. They had an officer at the normally unmanned front gate to the facility and they were searching all vehicles that day. The mindless attorney was told that they were searching vehicles and if he had any contraband items - weapons, explosives, drugs, alcohol, etc. that he could leave without search. He proceeded into the parking lot and his vehicle was searched and he was promptly arrested for introducing contraband to a state prison facility - a few cases of wine were in his trunk.
An old friend goes the opposite direction when he visits his cousin in prison now - he is an FFL holder and does the gun show circuit - he parks in town and takes a cab to the prison to avoid the possibility that they might search his vehicle. While he is irritated doing so he would rather be inconvenienced than risk his livelihood as if charged with a felony he certainly would loos his FFL.