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SOME VERY INTERESTING 594 IMPLICATIONS COMING TO LIGHT

Discussion in 'Legal & Political Archive' started by Browning55, Nov 17, 2014.

  1. Browning55

    Browning55 Seattle-Everett Area Active Member

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    Interesting questions continue to be raised about the billionaire-supported I-594 that was passed after thousands of deceptive ads. Nowhere near all of the problems but they're starting to come out. The media decided they wanted the ad money from billionaires and keeping them happy was more important than fairly and objectively informing the public. (A flood of FCC protests against renewing their licenses for failing to operate in the public interest might be interesting.)

    http://www.whidbeynewstimes.com/opinion/letters/282766881.html
    Does new law take into consideration ‘devices'? | Letter
    Nov 15, 2014 at 3:00AM
    Editor,

    Will Home Depot, Walmart, Lowe’s, Cabela’s and countless other sporting goods and hardware stores, as well as construction companies in Washington and even the state Department of Transportation, comply with Initiative 594 when it becomes law, and will this state’s prosecuting attorneys prosecute those who don’t?

    The definition of firearm contained in state law and in I-594 reads, “… A weapon or device from which a projectile or projectiles may be fired by an explosive such as gunpowder.”
    Notice the key words “or device” in the definition.

    Walmart and many sporting goods stores sell 12-gauge flare guns used for signaling straight off the shelves.

    These flare guns have previously been determined to be firearms by the WSP Crime Lab in Tacoma because they fire a projectile by an explosive.

    I-594 requires background checks for these sales, loans and transfers.

    Home Depot, Lowe’s and other hardware stores sell Ramset nail guns, which use a gunpowder charge to fire nails, usually into concrete or steel.

    These nail guns have actually been used in the past to murder people. I-594 requires background checks on these sales, loans and transfers.

    When the Washington DOT sends out their artillery gun with a road crew for avalanche control, there is no exception in I-594 for that temporary transfer.
    I-594 requires a background check for it.

    I-594 also requires that the gun be delivered to the federal firearms license for the transfer, so which FFL will the Department of Transportation tow their artillery gun to for transfer to the road crew?

    If a construction company has any of these powder actuated nail-driving devices on their shelves for their employees to take to job sites to use — I-594 requires a background check for that temporary transfer.

    And if one employee at the job site gives that powder actuated nail gun to another employee to use — another background check is required.

    Even most of the little plastic champagne bottle poppers that shoot the confetti when the string is pulled are devices that fire a projectile with an explosive charge — there is a tiny gunpowder charge in most of them.

    Will retail party stores comply with the required background checks, and will they be prosecuted if they don’t?

    The question is, are the same people who supported this Initiative now going to insist that it be enforced and violations prosecuted?

    We are going to have retailers like Home Depot selling semi-automatic firearms as defined by current state law and I-594 to the public right off the shelves with no background checks in direct violation of I-594.

    The second sale or transfer becomes a felony. Are we just going to allow these felonies to occur everyday?

    John Havercroft
    Stanwood
     
    corvus, Riot, WilliamIV and 1 other person like this.
  2. IronMonster

    IronMonster Washington Opinionated Member Diamond Supporter

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    Literal interpretation will only be used to vilify gun owners. I think the champagne poppers and ramset gun crowd have little to be concerned about. It is an interesting point though.
     
  3. Gunguy45

    Gunguy45 Well-Known Member

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    But it can, in fact, be used as an argument for a 2/3 majority vote of the legislature to amend 594.

    The more I think about this and the more I hear great examples like the thread starter's, the more I think that the legislature will simply HAVE to amend 594's transfer language.

    It's completely unworkable as it stands. All it does is put a couple of million people at jeopardy for even the most innocent of interactions.

    So you either have LE ignoring 90% of the key provisions or you have tens of thousands of prosecutions for trivial violations.

    Now, I make my living with guns. This is not a trivial issue at all for me. I've started putting in applications for jobs because my business just went tits-up thanks to 594.

    My bread and butter classes all involve me supplying guns to people. When it comes to range time, I can't even pretend to argue that it isn't "Material Possession," which absolutely everyone agrees is a transfer.

    So either I'm a felon or my local jurisdiction agrees (on their own without voter support) to ignore 90% of a new law.

    This is an untenable situation and the legislature HAS to act.

    You could keep all the language about "permanent transfers" (Which voters decided on) in tact and still gut the ridiculous transfer language in the law and not at all be gainsaying the vote of the people.

    BG checks on sales or trades is one thing. 594 goes FAR beyond that.

    At this point, it's literally easier to make a private sale in MASSACHUSETTS, than it is in WA. Having done half a dozen sales in Mass, I can attest to this.
     
  4. NARUT

    NARUT Seattle, WA New Member

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    You left out FIREWORKS on the 4th July, New Year, etc. Everyone in my neighborhood is going to be in violation of 594, including the venders and distributors, come next July.
     
  5. WasrNwarpaint

    WasrNwarpaint Portland Well-Known Member

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    So if they are to ignore, the minor issues like fireworks, nail guns, Party poppers etc etc. which they have too. you cant arrest a 5 yr old at a birthday party as a felon

    lets bring the state to its knees with a MILLION frivolous police reports of felonies in progress, going on in your neighborhood. kids with party poppers, fireworks, the guys doing a remodel across they street, who cares report everyone ! their parents voted it in lets mess with everyone till they see they financial burden they have created with a ridiculous law
    we can run them ragged till they make it a law you cant call them...... or change the friggin laws
     
  6. erudne

    erudne The Pie Matrix PPL Say Sleeping W/Your Rifle Is A bad Thing? Bronze Supporter

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    I believe that this is one of the covert purposes of the law, criminalize everyone and drive petty citizens to inform on each other
     
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  7. balaperdida

    balaperdida eastern idaho Well-Known Member

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    Exactly!!!

    Rule #4 from Rules for Radicals: “'Make the enemy live up to its own book of rules.' If the rule is that every letter gets a reply, send 30,000 letters. You can kill them with this because no one can possibly obey all of their own rules."

    Organize. Get people into Home Depot, Lowes, and every other place that might be selling for the specific purpose to report suspected violations by phone.

    These reports are not frivolous. They would be bona fide reports of a crime in progress.

    It's a Horny Moms strategy, but it's worth following.

    Quote from Gunguy45: But it can, in fact, be used as an argument for a 2/3 majority vote of the legislature to amend 594.

    Better yet would be to repeal.
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2014
    CarlMc, bnsaibum and Scott F like this.
  8. WasrNwarpaint

    WasrNwarpaint Portland Well-Known Member

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    I believe that this is one of the covert purposes of the law, criminalize everyone and drive petty citizens to inform on each other

    Ofcourse ..... it is my point, lets give them exactly what they want , but overload the system while we are at it to prove how retarded this law is.

    FIX IT OR PAY FOR IT

    the antis are already using this tactic against us.....
    wear your open carry gear ....you get harassed
    they have a name for this, which escapes me at the moment.... reporting in calls that are messing with legal law abiding open carry. we can do the same thing!
    we are being steam rolled by mothers for chris sakes

    going to rallies to pass a gun infront of a cop seems equally as ridiculous to me.....they dont care & we look foolish wasting our energy.....waste their resources not ours!

    Im not opposed to donating some cash to organizations like OFF but I prefer to use our oppressors money against themselves
    Although I call them frivolous calls they are not your reporting FELONIES ITS YOUR DUTY AS A LAW ABIDING CITIZEN
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2014
    Dyjital likes this.
  9. Scott F

    Scott F Oregon City, OR Active Member

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    I tend to agree. This might be a case where the fastest way to end this foolishness it to demand enforcement of the law and take departments to court is they do not comply.
     
  10. Gunguy45

    Gunguy45 Well-Known Member

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    I would love to see the law repealed. But as a conservative, I have to say that outright repeal of the key provisions regarding background checks BY THE LEGISLATURE would verge on tyranny.

    We ought to be VERY cautious of encouraging the legislature to outright repeal voter initiatives. Once you open that can of worms, it's going to be pretty hard to close it again.

    On the other hand, asking the legislature to to amend unworkable provisions of an initiative while preserving the clear intent of the voters seems reasonable.

    It's not up to the legislature to slap the voters in the face saying they know better than the citizenry. It's OUR job to convince the people they were wrong. I think the best way to do that is the initiative process.
     
  11. Joao01

    Joao01 South King/North Pierce Active Member

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    While I agree with you to an extent, the entire Initiative Process is an affront to our Constitutional Republic. Initiatives bypass the legislature, and as we all know and see, the general public is too easily swayed by emotion, and prime time television ads.
     
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  12. RB87

    RB87 Oregon Active Member

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    I believe you're thinking of the term "swatting" or a variant of it anyway.
     
  13. U201491

    U201491 Well-Known Member

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    Damn... JUST NULLIFY the law they passed by massive non compliance. There is a potential for at least 842,000 of you to stand and just tell them to put that bad law in a dark place.
    Follow Connecticut's lead. What is so hard to comprehend here. NULLIFY THE BAD LAW. IT IS WITHIN THE POWER OF THE PEOPLE TO DO !. There is a million what ifs and to organize in mass in your state and nullify is the simple and right solution to put a stop to this blatant 2nd Amendment and Constitutional infringement by totalitarian minded money grubbers that allowed Bloomberg, gates and allen to buy your state. Are you all going to tolerate that.... I give up... no one can hear up there..... May God help ya all...
    Frustrating.... to say the least................
     
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  14. Gunguy45

    Gunguy45 Well-Known Member

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    People have been "Not Complying" by the millions with marijuana laws for instance. A lot of them are now felons. Yes, you can probably get away with non-compliance most of the time. Except that the time you don't get away with it, you've lost your rights forever.

    The answer is repeal by initiative or force the courts or the legislature to fix the mess. Probably a little bit of all three. Or do you really believe that people generally ignoring the law will be of any use to the poor firearms trainer who goes to jail for letting students use her guns at a class?
     
  15. U201491

    U201491 Well-Known Member

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    Unnorganized yes, but organized as in Conn they win.
    Pot is not a constitutional Amendment.
    The 2nd IS !!
    You cannot compare them.
    There are 10 thousand reason you can come up with to not do it, but all will cost you your rights anyway. They can never make 800,000 people that refuse to comply do anything. that is how you win.
    Look I watched what they did back there and am beginning to think its the only state in the us that has anyone with any real guts left...
    Hell I don't live up there, you all have to live with the consequences of what you do either way.

    The cliff is three feet to the right, just follow the lead lemming.

    I can't watch the lack of will that is up there....................... :(

    We'll have to deal with our own wars that are coming here.
     
    str8off187 likes this.
  16. usagi

    usagi Redmond Well-Known Member

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    the initiative system as currently implemented is garbage. the US is a constitutional republic, for very good reasons. direct democracy sucks -- but that's exactly what initiatives are. with initiatives, the rest of WA is ruled by king county - tyranny of the majority.
     
  17. Gunguy45

    Gunguy45 Well-Known Member

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    Explain to me again how CT gun owners are somehow not in jeopardy. the AW registry still exists, it's still a crime not to register and anyone who doesn't is still subject to arrest any time a cop wants to act on it.

    I'm all for non-compliance, but that alone accomplishes nothing. Also, no one frankly gives a rip about your or mine interpretation of 2A. 594 WILL pass federal scrutiny under Heller and McDonald and Peralta. That's because the constitution means what the COURTS say it means.

    Our state constitution has a lot more robust protection than the federal one anyway.

    Or are you actually naive enough to think that just because we all refuse to comply that it will somehow change anything? We AREN'T going to comply in large measure. That was a forgone conclusion. So what? It changes no facts on the ground, removes no threat to our freedom and rights. Again, you suggest that screaming changes things and you have yet to demonstrate in any way how that actually works.

    And frankly, lose the attitude. YOU are the only one suggesting we are meekly doing nothing.

    Your position is apparently that if we all just stomp out feet and scream NO! that it will magically undo the law and that actually working with the legislature and through the courts somehow means we're all weaklings? Are you even serious?
     
  18. usagi

    usagi Redmond Well-Known Member

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    stomping your feet and throwing a tantrum is more emotionally satisfying and easier. it changes nothing.

    legislation and litigation is slow, unsatisfying, and takes lots of work. it is what actually accomplishes change, albeit slowly.

    the antigunners are working the system - the legal system - to attack our rights, while pro-gunners are just stamping their feet and yelling "what part of shall not be infringed do you not understand?". completely unhelpful and not productive.
     
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  19. U201491

    U201491 Well-Known Member

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    As I stated, I am done.
    I am sure you can counter anything I say.
    Frankly I have no skin in the game up there, so best wishes to all of you.
    But here is something you should study a bit.

    http://rt.com/usa/ct-carry-gun-ban-789/

    May just make your legislature sit up and take notice and act against the bad imitative.
    But then you are right, it probably wont :\/\/\ Just live with it...........................
     
  20. Doc In UPlace

    Doc In UPlace Tacoma-ish Well-Known Member

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    Actually it isn't true- in the case of I-594. 12 additional counties approved the measure, along with King, including 3 eastern WA counties.
    Click Here Wa Sec State Results