So.... Do you suppose the ATF will SBR a pistol?

IronMonster · Feb 13, 2015

I know the whole SIG brace thing has been discussed to death, however I think this is a real concern. I have several AR pistols with SIG braces that are only practical to use in a way that is inconsistent with the latest ATF ruling letter. I have talked with several folks who are giving up, filing the paperwork to "redesign" their pistols into SBR's. I can see the reason why they have chosen to go that route, however it makes no sense for several reasons.

Number one at least in Washington, You cannot carry a concealed rifle, nor would I think you would want to carry around a concealed NFA item. Now I am not talking about packing a AR pistol in a thigh rig. I am talking about having one in a get home pack in the back seat of the car. An AR pistol is ideal for those times when you want a bit more firepower but still want to keep the whole package under wraps. Turning your pistol into a SBR makes this far more complicated unnecessarily.

The fact of the matter is I do not want a short barreled rifle. I want a pistol that in a pinch I can put up to my cheek to get a better sight picture. I also want to do my best to comply with the ATF ruling simply because I have no interest in being a test case. This latest ruling stands out as some of the most convoluted double speak that has come out of the ATF in recent years. There is no precedent for use of an item dictating its classification. (You hold it like a pistol, its a pistol. You hold it like a rifle, its now a rifle)

So basically I want a magic tag from the ATF. One that only applies to the SBR created when I hold my PISTOL to my cheek. I want to leave the SIG brace on, I want to maintain the benefits of this firearm being classified as a pistol. I dont want a SBR but evidently the ATF position is if I use my pistol in certain ways I am guilty of momentarily "redesigning" my pistol into a unregistered NFA item. So do you suppose they will grant a SBR pistol? I am assuming that as long as I leave the SIG brace attached I can claim that the firearm is in a pistol/non NFA configuration. That IF I wanted to because I have the receiver registered as a SBR I could put a stock on it and turn it into a SBR legally AND if by chance for some reason someone with nothing better to do caught be using my pistol in a way the ATF considered redesigning it into a SBR I could simply say "Its cool, I have a magic tag that lets me put my pistol to my shoulder and "redesign" it when ever I like.

Just writing this out makes me mad. This ruling makes no sense

Joe13 · Feb 13, 2015

I'd just leave it in your ghb and if you have a need to shoulder it in an emergency you can alway ask for forgiveness later.

etrain16 · Feb 13, 2015

Isn't it kind of a moot point? You could keep the arm brace on it, legally, so long as you don't shoulder it. If you have a true SHTF scenario where you grab your BOB with the pistol, I doubt at that time the police will have the opportunity to worry about shouldering an arm brace.

And yes, it's a ridiculous ruling, but right on par with anti-gunner mentality. Probably got worked up over all the shouldered arm brace videos on YouTube.

Edit - looks like Joe just beat me to it

IronMonster · Feb 13, 2015

Yeah, but what about training? Practice? Just having fun with the thing? I live in Seattle. On the rare occasions that I get to go shoot it is at a range. Being at a range you never know who is there of what kind of person they are. There is a real chance that some nut job with an axe to grind would want to make an example out of you. So your saying that I simply cant shoot my weapons they way I choose to shoot them unless its the end of the world? I am unwilling to do that. I actually want to use them, and the only way that is practical is using the sights with a cheek weld.

etrain16 · Feb 13, 2015

IronMonster said:
Yeah, but what about training? Practice? Just having fun with the thing? I live in Seattle. On the rare occasions that I get to go shoot it is at a range. Being at a range you never know who is there of what kind of person they are. There is a real chance that some nut job with an axe to grind would want to make an example out of you. So your saying that I simply cant shoot my weapons they way I choose to shoot them unless its the end of the world? I am unwilling to do that. I actually want to use them, and the only way that is practical is using the sights with a cheek weld.

Totally agree, but with the current ruling in effect, your choices are limited. Otherwise take your chances practicing deep in the woods or on private property where you hope you're not seen. It's a tough call, but bad news if you're caught.

blackadder · Feb 13, 2015

IronMonster said:
Yeah, but what about training? Practice? Just having fun with the thing? I live in Seattle. On the rare occasions that I get to go shoot it is at a range. Being at a range you never know who is there of what kind of person they are. There is a real chance that some nut job with an axe to grind would want to make an example out of you. So your saying that I simply cant shoot my weapons they way I choose to shoot them unless its the end of the world? I am unwilling to do that. I actually want to use them, and the only way that is practical is using the sights with a cheek weld.

Don't you have 30 AR pistols, or at least a lot? What if you were to actually SBR one or two for the purpose of use at the range, and leave the rest as is for SHTF situations or other situations where no-one will know/care.

IronMonster · Feb 13, 2015

I have two, I have plenty of AR lowers, I could set up a dedicated SBR lower that I could swap the pistol upper onto when I wanted to go play with it I suppose. Have two identical lowers, one for use as a pistol, the other with the same SIG brace registered as a SBR? I wonder if I could carry both lowers with me, The firearm assembled as a pistol so I could conceal it, plus a registered SBR lower so If I wanted to take it out of the bag and shoot. It wouldn't work from the standpoint you would have to be pretty dense to treat a NFA item the same way as a carry firearm. The risks associated with a registered NFA item do not make it a good truck gun.

blackadder · Feb 13, 2015

IronMonster said:
I have two, I have plenty of AR lowers, I could set up a dedicated SBR lower that I could swap the pistol upper onto when I wanted to go play with it I suppose. Have two identical lowers, one for use as a pistol, the other with the same SIG brace registered as a SBR? I wonder if I could carry both lowers with me, The firearm assembled as a pistol so I could conceal it, plus a registered SBR lower so If I wanted to take it out of the bag and shoot. It wouldn't work from the standpoint you would have to be pretty dense to treat a NFA item the same way as a carry firearm. The risks associated with a registered NFA item do not make it a good truck gun.

I agree that you would not want to leave a NFA item in your vehicle. However, could you not just do the pistol in the vehicle and then add the SBR lower for range trips?

jluck · Feb 13, 2015

There are other ways to skirt the SBR rules (not laws). Foam, cane tips, cheek weld enhancers,Thordsen,. I'm sure you know all this and much more about AR's than I do.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2014/07/15/thorsden-customs-ar-pistol-buffer-tube/

http://www.amazon.com/Ultimate-Arms-Gear-Rubber-Pistol/dp/B00L5R1CJA

http://jerkingthetrigger.com/tag/ar-15-pistol/

You could also do a folder conversion on a SBR for a nice little backpack gun. I don't know how to answer the WA laws issue other than moving to a free country. When you need that "pistol" shouldered it could very well be against someone wanting to enforce the "rules".

So, You cant have a rifle in a case while in a car in Washington? Or is a case no longer a case if it can hold a...article of clothes or some food or.... What's ATF or WA's stance on that convoluted horse bubblegum?

IronMonster · Feb 13, 2015

Well, If nothing else I guess I answered my own question. The ATF will not let you "convert" a rifle into a pistol. Once a rifle, always a rifle. So there is no way that they would approve a SBR pistol since you have to "manufacture" the SBR first as a rifle and then the act of converting it to a pistol would be a crime in and of itself.

oli700 · Feb 13, 2015

So what law would you be in violation of when shouldering ?

IronMonster · Feb 13, 2015

https://www.atf.gov/sites/default/f...ter_on_the_redesign_of_stabilizing_braces.pdf

"Any person who intends to use a handgun stabilizing brace as a shoulder stock on a pistol (having a rifled barrel under 16 inches in length or a smooth bore firearm with a barrel under 18 inches in length) must first file an ATF Form 1 and pay the applicable tax because the resulting
firearm will be subject to all provisions of the NFA"

jluck · Feb 13, 2015

IT'S A BIRD!!! NO IT'S A PLANE!!! NOPE MAYBE IT'S A RIFLE OR OR A PISTOL... I CANT TELL HOW CLOSE IT IS TO HIS SHOULDER....

F-N ATF! bubblegum YOU!

oli700 · Feb 13, 2015

I know the letter, just think that it has a way to go before its concrete .....and even if it was the final addition or amendment to the national firearms act, won't take effect till the next calendar year.

Public range ......all you got to shoot at ? ......the only way they can inforce it is on the snitch system, be smart, don't ask questions, don't tell

Although no one on this forum would shoulder a brace, I think the only place a stamp is better than a brace is you get better ergo with a stamp......other than that the brace is supperior, cc, state lines, selling, buying

SCARed · Feb 13, 2015

In WA, you can't have a LOADED rifle in the car. So take the mag out and store them BOTH in your bag. What's the problem?
And IM, your were correct in your assertion that you could have a AR pistol, register it as an SBR and still be OK to swap it back to a pistol lower when you wanted.