SBR AR Lower Question

[etrain16]

I'm considering SBR'ing a lower or two in the next 6-8 months (pending availability of funds). Never having done this before, and knowing I like to plan ahead, I've got a few questions that I'm not finding solid answers to. I'm hoping you wonderful NWFA folks can help me make this nice and simple.

1. For an AR lower, do I have to select a specific caliber? I want to be able to swap uppers as I please and would prefer not to be restricted.

2. I've heard you have to select a minimum barrel length for your SBR - but can install any barrel longer than that, so long as it doesn't go below the minimum. Is this correct? Why not choose, say 4" and call it good?

3. When do you get your engraving done? After you get the stamp?

4. Any recommendations for folks that do a good job engraving at a decent price?

Any other important information I should know that I haven't addressed here?

Thanks in advance!

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[Member 34319]

For the paperwork it's ok to put the shortest configuration you will ever run it in on the form. This goes for overall length and barrel length. IE, overall being stock completely collapsed to barrel threads.

I think you meant you want to swap uppers? If you put 5.56 on your paperwork, it's ok to put another upper on it in another caliber. Usually if the lower has multi engraved, you would put multi, but some have 5.56 or 223. Whatever is on the lower is what should go on the paperwork.

You can get it engraved whenever you like, however it is required once the SBR is assembled after receiving the stamp. Having a stamp, but no engraving on an assembled SBR is a no go.

I'm not a lawyer, but, I have never heard of anyone ever having the ATF verify a length or caliber on a NFA item before. I've witnessed friends that I know submitted 10.5" barrel lengths running a 4" 22lr. However, that being said, I'd sure as hell would have all the components available to make it reflect what I submitted on the form.

 

[etrain16]

For the paperwork it's ok to put the shortest configuration you will ever run it in on the form. This goes for overall length and barrel length. IE, overall being stock completely collapsed to barrel threads.

I think you meant you want to swap uppers? If you put 5.56 on your paperwork, it's ok to put another upper on it in another caliber. Usually if the lower has multi engraved, you would put multi, but some have 5.56 or 223. Whatever is on the lower is what should go on the paperwork.

You can get it engraved whenever you like, however it is required once the SBR is assembled after receiving the stamp. Having a stamp, but no engraving on an assembled SBR is a no go.

I'm not a lawyer, but, I have never heard of anyone ever having the ATF verify a length or caliber on a NFA item before. I've witnessed friends that I know submitted 10.5" barrel lengths running a 4" 22lr. However, that being said, I'd sure as hell would have all the components available to make it reflect what I submitted on the form.

Yes, I did mean uppers, corrected it above Thanks for the info.

 

[Ura-Ki]

I may be incorrect, but as long as the lower is engraved "Multi" it fills the caliber requirement! I would decide on the minimum barrel length ahead of time knowing your likely going to be swapping uppers with longer lenghts, so your minimum falls below what you would most likely run! As far as engraving goes, I do know Jon at NWcustom firearms does do it, but don't know if he can meet the required depth, so I would enquire with him!
I don't know about others, but I have had the ATF visit for a friendly inspection to ensure compliance my double stamp carbine, but that's likely because of the suppressor build, as the only thing they looked at on the rifle was the caliber listing, they didn't seem to care about any thing else on the rifle even though it is a 80% build! Your results may vary!

 

[Stomper]

IMHO, with all the awesome BATF approved "arm-braces" out there for the AR it makes more sense to just make a "pistol".... and you don't need a BATF permission slip to travel interstate with it, either.

11.5" AR "pistols" that I've carved from 80%ers (the bottom one is now completed)... they're awesome shooters.

 

[CamoDeafie]

IMHO, with all the awesome BATF approved "arm-braces" out there for the AR it makes more sense to just make a "pistol".... and you don't need a BATF permission slip to travel interstate with it, either.

11.5" AR "pistols" that I've carved from 80%ers (the bottom one is now completed)... they're awesome shooters.

View attachment 474699

suppose theres a very specific look/config the guy wants to do, thats not currently available with pistol braces?

like for example, the xm177e1/colt commando with the CAR 3 position stock, or the A1/A2 stocked short barreled ARs? a .300 BLK version of the Colt Commando with the CAR 3-pos stock, and A1 carry handle, carbine round handguards, standard FSB, 10.5" barrel?

 

[JeremyK]

IMHO, with all the awesome BATF approved "arm-braces" out there for the AR it makes more sense to just make a "pistol".... and you don't need a BATF permission slip to travel interstate with it, either.

11.5" AR "pistols" that I've carved from 80%ers (the bottom one is now completed)... they're awesome shooters.

View attachment 474699

Is the arm brace in that pic adjustable for length?

 

[Member 34319]

Remember to measure OAL with the stock fully extended. For instance: the CMR-30 is 22.5" with the stock collapsed, but extends beyond 26" when extended.

Funny, I was told to put the shortest OAL not the longest.

Sometimes I think they just make it up on the fly to confuse everybody.

Also, this is a damn fine looking solution! SBA3 adjustable brace that uses a standard carbine buffer tube.

 

[Heyjoe]

IMHO, with all the awesome BATF approved "arm-braces" out there for the AR it makes more sense to just make a "pistol".... and you don't need a BATF permission slip to travel interstate with it, either.

11.5" AR "pistols" that I've carved from 80%ers (the bottom one is now completed)... they're awesome shooters.

View attachment 474699

Kills me seeing those sexy gals. I just today mailed off parts for my first shorty to a special smith in west oregon.

I second the "pistol" build over sbr. Same thing really, 'cept i can stuff a pistol in my chonies and cruise the town in my geo prism ready to rock

 

[Member 34319]

BATFE letters have always illustrated that stocks would have to be fully extended for OAL measurements. Since OP is talking about an SBR, and not a "firearm" it's clear. Some confusion arose in CT recently regarding stste law:

ATF Measuring OAL With Brace Folded? - The Firearm Blog

If OAL was ever measured when collapsed/folded, then why would the CMR-30 not be considered an SBR? As ststed before, it's 22.5" collapsed, but still remains a title 1 rifle.

Good to know. Makes sense. Sadly, I was given the information by an ATF agent too! Just goes to show, this stuff is confusing.

 

[etrain16]

IMHO, with all the awesome BATF approved "arm-braces" out there for the AR it makes more sense to just make a "pistol".... and you don't need a BATF permission slip to travel interstate with it, either.

11.5" AR "pistols" that I've carved from 80%ers (the bottom one is now completed)... they're awesome shooters.

View attachment 474699

Pistol lowers I have covered. Just like the ability to add an adjustable stock, something other than the braces. Also future concern should the ATF do another 180 on their stance on shouldering a brace. I don't trust them to leave us with the current "interpretation" - it's to our benefit, so of course they'll find a way to screw it up.

 

[etrain16]

They never did a 180 on shouldering the braces. Their stance is still that you can't shoulder it. The letter to SB Tactical's legal team, which said:

View attachment 474736

was never a public release notice. It wasn't released BY the ATF.

Well if they have an issue with it, they certainly aren't enforcing it. I've read the letter myself, several times. While it may not be an official rule, etc., it seems they have other things they're more worried about. Either way, since the letter came out, it appears many, many people are now shouldering braces.

 

[Heyjoe]

They never did a 180 on shouldering the braces. Their stance is still that you can't shoulder it. The letter to SB Tactical's legal team, which said:

View attachment 474736

was never a public release notice. It wasn't released BY the ATF.

How about gooching your suitcase? That allowed?

 

[Stomper]

Is the arm brace in that pic adjustable for length?

It is adjustable, the buffer-tube has a multiple divots in it along the bottom, but you need an Allen wrench to work the set-screw to make any adjustments.

I roll with a shorter stock length these days since I've changed my CQB shooting stance (which those pistols are designed for) from a "bladed" stance (from years ago) to more "forward/square" stance. This is to (among other things) present only frontal armored plates in a vest/carrier instead of un/less protected side areas of the torso.

 

[JedB]

My answers are inline to your questions.
I've answered in red.

I'm considering SBR'ing a lower or two in the next 6-8 months (pending availability of funds). Never having done this before, and knowing I like to plan ahead, I've got a few questions that I'm not finding solid answers to. I'm hoping you wonderful NWFA folks can help me make this nice and simple.

1. For an AR lower, do I have to select a specific caliber? I want to be able to swap uppers as I please and would prefer not to be restricted.
You will need to select a caliber of the weapon for putting it on the form-1. Assuming a standard AR lower, you can select 5.56, .223, 300 Blackout, etc. But, for the form, you must select one. The "multi" that folks are discussing here is not related to the caliber selection for the ATF form-1.

2. I've heard you have to select a minimum barrel length for your SBR - but can install any barrel longer than that, so long as it doesn't go below the minimum. Is this correct? Why not choose, say 4" and call it good?
You do have to put a minimum barrel length and an overall length on your form. You can do as you suggest above (4" barrel), but my suggestion is to put a minimum length of an upper you will actually have.

3. When do you get your engraving done? After you get the stamp?
I would wait until *after* you get the stamp approval to get the engraving done.

4. Any recommendations for folks that do a good job engraving at a decent price?
I used Bye Engraving. Nice folks, nice place, and reasonable for the engraving. The folks there know the routine, and proper font size, etc. They have done all my SBRs so far.

Any other important information I should know that I haven't addressed here?
Good luck and be patient on the stamp waiting.

Thanks in advance!

 

[etrain16]

My answers are inline to your questions.
I've answered in red.

Okay so your answer to #1 raises a further question and seems, at least as I read it, to contradict some other answers.

My main concern with question #1 is that I can swap uppers of different calibers. You noted the Form 1 requires a choice of caliber, even if the lower is marked "multi". So if you have to select a caliber for the Form 1, does that then mean that you are limited only to that caliber for any upper attached to the lower? That's probably the one question I'm most interested in.

 

[JedB]

Okay so your answer to #1 raises a further question and seems, at least as I read it, to contradict some other answers.

My main concern with question #1 is that I can swap uppers of different calibers. You noted the Form 1 requires a choice of caliber, even if the lower is marked "multi". So if you have to select a caliber for the Form 1, does that then mean that you are limited only to that caliber for any upper attached to the lower? That's probably the one question I'm most interested in.

No, it does not limit you to just that caliber.

 

[etrain16]

No, it does not limit you to just that caliber.

Great, that's good news.

 

[nehalemguy]

I think you meant you want to swap uppers? If you put 5.56 on your paperwork, it's ok to put another upper on it in another caliber. Usually if the lower has multi engraved, you would put multi, but some have 5.56 or 223. Whatever is on the lower is what should go on the paperwork.

I read a report on another forum of a Form 1 being kicked back for marking "multi". BAFTE, at least in that particular case, wanted a specific caliber.

E

 

[Member 34319]

I read a report on another forum of a Form 1 being kicked back for marking "multi". BAFTE, at least in that particular case, wanted a specific caliber.

E

Ya, I recall reading that somewhere too.

This is just another example of how stupid this is.

Before that kick back it was considered absolutely norm to place multi. Then they said no to that. Honestly I think the system sucks, especially in regards to the AR15 platforms. Due to their modularity, it is silly since most use the modularity to their benefit and swap all around with calibers and barrel lengths.

@etrain16 I would recommend utilizing SilencerShop and their form 1 services. If you screw something up, they will let you know and you can make corrections. That and it is all done online. If you haven't done up an account, go to MK Tactical and get it done on their kiosk. Once done, your info is on file and you can just go to their site and purchase suppressors or more form 1s.