SBR AR Lower Question

[SCARed]

Some bad info in this thread....

1.) DO NOT engrave a caliber on the lower. If you do, that's the only caliber you can have mated on that lower. Your barrel should have the engraving of the caliber on it. Then you can switch calibers all you want. "Multi" is not an acceptable engraving option.

2.) There is no "minimum barrel length". List whatever barrel length you plan to initially build the gun to. Then switch barrel lengths at will. Shorter or longer, it doesn't matter.

3.) Remember, it is only an NFA item when it's in a NFA configuration. So slap a 16"+ barrel on it and NFA rules don't apply.

 

[etrain16]

Some bad info in this thread....

1.) DO NOT engrave a caliber on the lower. If you do, that's the only caliber you can have mated on that lower. Your barrel should have the engraving of the caliber on it. Then you can switch calibers all you want. "Multi" is not an acceptable engraving option.

2.) There is no "minimum barrel length". List whatever barrel length you plan to initially build the gun to. Then switch barrel lengths at will. Shorter or longer, it doesn't matter.

3.) Remember, it is only an NFA item when it's in a NFA configuration. So slap a 16"+ barrel on it and NFA rules don't apply.

With regard to caliber, I was more interested in the Form 1 requirement - I wasn't aware of any requirement to engrave a caliber on the lower. That said, I think my lower was already marked "multi" by the manufacturer.

Good to know on the barrel length. And yes, I did know it would only be an NFA item in NFA configuration, but it's a good reminder for everyone who may not know that.

 

[AK0perator47]

I had thought about this exact subject as well! I figured I would just ask it here as etrain did. Now with that out of the way here is what I decided...

First: The ATF is like any other government agency. The policy is allows going to change based on the golden rule. "He who has the gold; makes the rules!"

Second: I am an American and like most of my American compadres I am lazy! I in this aspect realize that the thought of swapping barrels of different caliber or lengths would work for about a year before I said screw it and leave it in one configuration.

Third: I don't plan on getting into some crazy shootout with armed, bio waste, spice fueled zombies!

Fourth: I also don't want to rely on law enforcement or some over zealous, prosecution, baby killing, waste of space, snowflake, shark crap, lawyer; not knowing that you can legally change the upper or whatever.

Fifth: I have decided on building a pistol AR with the Maxim Defense PDW brace. In 223 wylde with an 11.5" barrel. Then build a pistol AR in 223 wylde with an 18" barrel. Go shooting in the woods and F.T.B. !!!

This is the brace...
Maxim CQB Pistol: PDW Brace for AR15 – Maxim Defense

Sixth: if the country for some reason goes up for grabs... I am quite sure that no one is going to notice if you have an SBR with the proper paperwork or a pistol AR or even a rifle. Just remember when society re-stabilizes at some point you will probably be judged for your actions when everything went sideways!

Now I don't want you to think I am trying to dissuade etrain from doing an SBR or saying that all lawyers are worthless etc. I am just stating what I decided.

And to quote Forrest Gump, "that's all I have to say about tha-at!"

 

[Member 34319]

Some bad info in this thread....

1.) DO NOT engrave a caliber on the lower. If you do, that's the only caliber you can have mated on that lower. Your barrel should have the engraving of the caliber on it. Then you can switch calibers all you want. "Multi" is not an acceptable engraving option.

Who said anything about engraving the caliber?

This only adds more bad info to the thread.

 

[AK0perator47]

Who said anything about engraving the caliber?

This only adds more bad info to the thread.

3. When do you get your engraving done? After you get the stamp?

Usually if the lower has multi engraved, you would put multi, but some have 5.56 or 223. Whatever is on the lower is what should go on the paperwork.

You can get it engraved whenever you like, however it is required once the SBR is assembled after receiving the stamp. Having a stamp, but no engraving on an assembled SBR is a no go.

Just to name a couple.

 

[AK0perator47]

@etrain16
You said that you were wanting multiple caliber uppers. So, you want to do the paperwork for one SBR and be able to swap uppers for 556, 224 Valkyrie, 458 socom and 300 blackout?
If I missed a caliber able to be loaded in a 556 magazine please don't nitpick.

 

[Member 34319]

Just to name a couple.

So talking about engraving the lower equates talking about engraving a caliber onto it.

Got it.

 

[AK0perator47]

So talking about engraving the lower equates talking about engraving a caliber onto it.

Got it.

No I am just referring to what SCARed was understanding in regards to engraving. This is why so many things get blown out of proportion and people get the wrong information. I am just trying to help clarify so then people are leaving with good information. No harm Reno!

 

[Member 34319]

Here is some info off Rainer Arms website, I trust they know what they are talking about.

ATF Form 1 Creating or Manufacturing your own SBR FAQ

What Info is needed for filling out a Form 1 to create a SBR?
Original Manufacturer (as printed on the firearm)
Type of Firearm (Short Barreled Rifle)
Caliber (base number only, i.e. .300, 308, .223, etc)
Model (as priced on the firearm from original manufacturer)
Length of barrel (as measured from the bolt face to muzzle tip)
Length overall (measure with stock fully extended and no removable muzzle device installed to the muzzle tip)
Serial number (as priced on the firearm from original manufacturer)
State why you intend to make a firearm ("for all lawful purposes")

Should I use electronic file or paper file for my Form 1?
Electronic (or eForm/eFile) has some distinct advantages. At the the you submit the form online you are charged immediately and can pay via credit card. Approvals via electronic are slightly faster, especially with delivery of your approved paperwork. In the case of electronic you will immediately get an e-mail with the Form 1 stamp attached once approved. Paper file is still very popular. One distinct advantage of paper file is the ability to make some corrections to the form after review by the examiner. Whereas with electronic any error results in an immediate disapproved and you start over.

Can the firearm stay in my possession while I wait for my Form 1 to be approved?
Unlike Form 4 where you are requesting approval to transfer an already created SBR which has to remain with the dealer until approved. Form 1 you are not transferring a SBR, but instead asking for permission to manufacture one. This means while you wait for approval the firearm, still in title 1 configuration, can remain in your possession until your Form 1 is approved.

I have my approved Form 1 stamp from the ATF, what is next?
Update your trust's Schedule A listing the new SBR as an asset (Original Manufacturer, Country of Origin, Model Number, and Serial Number). Next you need to engrave trust info on your firearm as new manufacturer along with city and state where the trust is located (per your trust document). Finally you can legally manufacturer you new SBR.

Is engraving required? What are legal locations for engraving the trust info?
Yes, engraving the new manufacturer on the firearm is absolutely required by the ATF. Engraving can be in plastic or metal along as it is at least .003" min depth and 1/16" min print size. The complete trust name along with the city and state the trust is located must be included in the engraving. Trust info can be engraved on the frame, receiver, or barrel. The receiver is the most popular location because any changes to the other components would not require the engraving to be repeated.

What about switching calibers and/or barrel length after my Form 1 stamp is approved?
Your Form 1 was approved for a specific caliber, overall length, and barrel length. However you are allowed to "temporarily" change the upper length or caliber but only if you maintain the original upper and ability switch back afterward. If you sell the upper and switch permanently to a different upper then you would need to send a notification to the ATF letting them know of the official change. You don't pay the stamp or go through the Form 1 process again, just a notification.

Can I travel both within my state and across sate lines with my SBR?
You are free to travel with your SBR within the same state as you reside. When traveling out of state first and foremost understand the laws of the state you are traveling. If local state residents can not posses a SBR then you as a visitor can not either. Before traveling across state lines with your SBR you need to submit a Form 5320.20 to the ATF and wait for approval. This form does not cost anything, but takes 4-8 weeks to get back approved so plan accordingly. Another option is temporally return the firearm to the title I configuration and then you can freely travel across state lines (again know local state laws for title 1 firearms).

ATF 41f, what changes?
ATF 41f goes into effect on July 13th, 2016. First off any form "post marked" prior to July13th will be subject to the current requirements. Any form post marked July 13th or after must follow the new requirements. There was originally language in 41f about a 2 year grandfather window, but it seems the ATF has changed their minds and basically we should expect July 13th is the hard cut off for the switch to new requirements.

Prior to July 13th and the 41f changes with a trust you send in the forms and list yourself as the trustor/trustee of the trust and sign. Nothing else is provided. After July 13th and when 41f goes into effect everyone listed as a trustor/trustee on the trust will be considered a "responsible party". As such they would need to have a responsible party questionnaire completed and include passport photos and fingerprint cards. Finally a copy of the form being submitted must be sent to the local PD. There is no local PD approval required for either trust or individual applications, only notification.

What if I want to sell my SBR?
If you are selling your SBR to another resident in the same state then you can do a person to person Form 4 transfer. Doing so forfeits your original $200 NFA tax stamp, and the buyer would pay for a new $200 stamp to transfer to their individual or trust. The original owner of the SBR would retain possession until the new Form 4 stamp is approved and delivered.

If you want to sell a NFA item to someone outside of state which you reside then you would then need to pay for a Form 4 transfer to a FFL/SOT in the buyer's state. Then the FFL/SOT will complete another Form 4 to transfer it to the buyer. Thus requiring two $200 NFA tax stamps to complete the transfer for out of state buyers.

Another option is return the firearm to a title I state. Then send a notification to the ATF to have the firearm removed from the NFA registry. You forfeit your $200 stamp doing so, however then you can sell your firearm through the normal private party transfer process per your local state laws.

Specific to WA state residents

WA State SBR bill SB 6165, what does this change?
The original SBR bill SB 5956 passed in 2014. However it lacked language that allowed a resident of WA to manufacture a SBR, it only allowed possession of an already created SBR. Hundreds of people successfully obtained approved Form 1 stamps from the ATF for over a year until the ATF discovered they should not be approving them. All Form 1 SBR applications stopped until the WA state law could be revised. SB 6165 fixes this issue and specifically says "Manufacture, own, buy, sell, loan, furnish, transport, or have in possession or under control" which basically now covers all aspects of creating and owning a SBR in the state of WA. SB 6165 was signed by the governor on April 1st, 2016 and goes into effect on June 9th, 2016. This means WA state residents can once again submit electronic or paper Form 1 to manufacture a SBR starting on June 9th. 2016.

 

[nehalemguy]

So talking about engraving the lower equates talking about engraving a caliber onto it.

Got it.

Just to name a couple.

Just to name a couple.

Nowhere in any of those quotes do I see discussion of engraving a caliber on a receiver.

I think we all understand "engraving" to refer to the requirement to engrave the name, city, and state of the person making the SBR.

E

 

[wired]

I always get my engraving done first...or at least after the form is sent in. It makes no difference as its not endorsed one way or another by the ATF. Once the stamp comes in assemble as needed and go ( after I get the parts I didnt have until then that is ) . That way I'm not sending an SBR receiver in the mail. Stuff gets lost in the mail. I'm not paying another 200 bucks and waiting a year because of the post office.

Dont engrave the lower in the caliber. Barrels are marked the caliber these days. Just give them overall and barrel length numbers. If you want to change it later go ahead and let them know written on a napkin.

 

[JedB]

So talking about engraving the lower equates talking about engraving a caliber onto it.

Got it.

NO.
The engraving is based on the BATFE requirement for form 1 construction.

For my form 1 stuff, i have
Name NFA Trust
Portland, Oregon.

Alternatively, if you are filing as an individual, your engraving should be
NAME
City, State

Getting the caliber engraved on the lower is not necessary, assuming you bought the lower you are converting. (As the manufacturer already did that during production).

 

[AK0perator47]

Is engraving required? What are legal locations for engraving the trust info?
Yes, engraving the new manufacturer on the firearm is absolutely required by the ATF. Engraving can be in plastic or metal along as it is at least .003" min depth and 1/16" min print size. The complete trust name along with the city and state the trust is located must be included in the engraving. Trust info can be engraved on the frame, receiver, or barrel. The receiver is the most popular location because any changes to the other components would not require the engraving to be repeated.

What about switching calibers and/or barrel length after my Form 1 stamp is approved?
Your Form 1 was approved for a specific caliber, overall length, and barrel length. However you are allowed to "temporarily" change the upper length or caliber but only if you maintain the original upper and ability switch back afterward. If you sell the upper and switch permanently to a different upper then you would need to send a notification to the ATF letting them know of the official change. You don't pay the stamp or go through the Form 1 process again, just a notification.

Can I travel both within my state and across sate lines with my SBR?
You are free to travel with your SBR within the same state as you reside. When traveling out of state first and foremost understand the laws of the state you are traveling. If local state residents can not posses a SBR then you as a visitor can not either. Before traveling across state lines with your SBR you need to submit a Form 5320.20 to the ATF and wait for approval. This form does not cost anything, but takes 4-8 weeks to get back approved so plan accordingly. Another option is temporally return the firearm to the title I configuration and then you can freely travel across state lines (again know local state laws for title 1 firearms).

This right here is part of the reason why I decided not to go with an SBR. I can drive around with my AR pistol loaded and didn't require more money from me to do so. Much less the headache and time of dealing with the paperwork and bs associated with it.

 

[JedB]

As an example, were I to SBR the below graphic,

You would need to add engraving for:
NAME
City, State

or via Trust
Trust Name
City, State

IMO, the best position for that would be below the factory engraving or on the other side.

 

[etrain16]

@etrain16
You said that you were wanting multiple caliber uppers. So, you want to do the paperwork for one SBR and be able to swap uppers for 556, 224 Valkyrie, 458 socom and 300 blackout?
If I missed a caliber able to be loaded in a 556 magazine please don't nitpick.

Could possibly be more than that. With a mag well adapter, they could mate with the right upper for pistol calibers like 9mm and .45acp. For now, my main interests are .223/5.56 and .300blk. I've always been interested in having guns/parts that are very versatile - so the more caliber options on a standard AR15 lower, the better.

 

[etrain16]

As an example, were I to SBR the below graphic,

You would need to add engraving for:
NAME
City, State

or via Trust
Trust Name
City, State

IMO, the best position for that would be below the factory engraving or on the other side.

View attachment 475283

So, what happens when you move? If city and state are engraved? I would be engraving for a trust.

 

[Member 34319]

So, what happens when you move? If city and state are engraved? I would be engraving for a trust.

Out of state, it must be legal in the new state, and you fill out a form. No new engraving needed.
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/f...ily-export-certain-national-firearms/download

Same state, nothing.

It only needs to be engraved once, in the location it was made. Just like a gun made by a manufacturer has their city and state on title 1 firearms.

For instance, the engraving requirements change when you make a SBR from a incomplete lower like an 80%. You are 100% the original maker. So you would have to engrave a serial and a model. I can't remember if a caliber is required. I'll check.

 

[etrain16]

Out of state, it must be legal in the new state, and you fill out a form. No new engraving needed.
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/f...ily-export-certain-national-firearms/download

Same state, nothing.

It only needs to be engraved once, in the location it was made. Just like a gun made by a manufacturer has their city and state on title 1 firearms.

For instance, the engraving requirements change when you make a SBR from a incomplete lower like an 80%. You are 100% the original maker. So you would have to engrave a serial and a model. I can't remember if a caliber is required. I'll check.

Good info, thanks.

 

[wired]

The caliber is required on the receiver or the barrel. If its on the barrel already and is conspicuous you do not need to engrave it anywhere else. My engraving is always done on the bottom inside lip of the mag well. If I didnt show you you'd never notice it.

 

[etrain16]

The caliber is required on the receiver or the barrel. If its on the barrel already and is conspicuous you do not need to engrave it anywhere else. My engraving is always done on the bottom inside lip of the mag well. If I didnt show you you'd never notice it.

That's an interesting way to do it - can most folks who do engraving do that inside the magwell? I'd prefer it to be inconspicuous like that.