Piston AR15 system VS. Direct Impingement AR15 system.

[eldbillbo]

agreed .

I have noted on other threads about the piston vs DI that is my belief that the current pistons systems are just a steeping stone in the evolution of the US rifle.

I think the end result will be something like the adcor bear (but i am not saying that it will be for sure ) but i believe its a step above the systems that have been on the market the past few years as it addresses all the negative issues with piston design (thinking outside the box as the other designs for the most parts are knock offs of each other and the original KKF concept) the systems on the market were originally designed as conversions and for the most part still are .

Pistons ARs are a good thing because got the industry thinking and it will lead to better rifle eventually that is still light weight , accurate , and even more reliable in more conditions as well as being long waring .

 

[ArBrnSnpr]

I totally agree, also to be clear when I speak about piston rifles I'm not talking about taking a DI gun and removing the gas system and installing a piston, which I have ZERO experience with. I'm talking about systems like the PWS and to a similar extent the LWRC that are designed to be a piston system, and a piston system only, not a conversion. Not to say a conversion gun is bad, or good, I just try to speak only about what I have experience with which in this case would be LWRC's, and PWS's and slew of variants of the issued rifle

 

[Hardwood floor guy]

I really don't think that some of you piston guys should get some defensive. The OP asked a question and some chimed in with their opinions .
both have their strenths and weaknesses . Mr45auto was just pointing out that there has been a lot of improvements since the first m16s were issued in Vietnam . Keep in mind the Brass cut corners and issued M16s without chrome bores without cleaning kits, and dirty ball ammo as well as faulty mags .

some of the most recent improvements such as special coatings and better mags, proper buffer weight, better springs, chrome lining, ect have made the DI system just about a flawless system but have been over shadowed by the Piston hype .

many of these improvements such as the mags have benefited the piston ARs as they have never had to experience faulty mags which were the #1 cause of failures for the AR15 platform . If you go to the piston forum on ar15.com you will see some experiencing problems with the piston systems . Some related to the piston system themselves and others that are the same as those experienced with DI systems such has mags proper buffer weight and getting not enough gas (Short stroking) or too much gas.

I followed the piston craze from its Resurrection by Kurt at KKF who reintroduced the piston idea since he was my gunsmith and i talked with him often the first 2 piston system to hit the market was based on his design but he did not have the machinery to produce them .

I like the piston system idea . I have a PWS piston system that has become obsolete they no longer make parts for it so if i loose something or it breaks i will have to buy a complete new system now if you have deep pockets thats fine but dumping a $250 system should i lose or break a part is gonna piss me off.

I put over 1000 rds in a day through a DI system without lube or cleaning without failure. i have personally dumped 3 100 rd beta mags and several 30 rd mag of nasty dirty wolf ammo through my friends DI m16 with no failure and no lube or cleaning granted it got dirty internally . i have never had a failure any any rifle i have built or any colt. I have fired thousands of rds through DIs with no failures due to lube or carbon so until i have one take a dump on me i due to those reasons i have no reason to doubt them.

but it all comes down to this to each their own. I am not gonna twist your arm to switch to DI so don't twist mine to go to piston already have one . like them both just pointing out some some pro and cons to owning a piston.

Its kind of funny though how many have tried to make the AK look more like a AR then they got the the bright idea to make the AR act more like a AK

i dont think "the piston guys"got definsive about an opinion rather it's good or not but the fact that the guy mr45auto started his post with "um...no!"as if to say youre completely wrong!
when you tell someone "youre wrong"with no regards for their opinion it makes people get defensive.
for example i think youre view of the piston gun is based on older or cheaper piston guns which i agree are a problem in many areas but the higher end piston gun is well made and problem free as any gun,but i wont tell you "youre wrong!"for your opinion.
again i have a DI noveske that i love but just think my piston pof is a better gun,it is!
im dont profit rather you buy piston or DI so my opinion is just that and so is yours.

 

[mr45auto]

That guy here;

The post quoted was wrong. I guess I missed the sensitivity training but go back and read the post. If you find it's correct then more power to you.

 

[eldbillbo]

Check out this video the US Army made (you might have to sit through a commercial 911 full auto fire no breaks no lube not clean DI system
no one would ever do this to their own rifle.

M-4A1 Firing Test - Video Library - The New York Times

and another test by daniel defense

<broken link removed>


again i don't have anything against the piston system if you want to spend the extra money thats fine. is it necessary in my opinion no, but thats just my opinion and its worth at least 2 cents. So do what ever is going to make you happy and make you feel safe . I really don't have much to add.

 

[madcratebuilder]

I have noted on other threads about the piston vs DI that is my belief that the current pistons systems are just a steeping stone in the evolution of the US rifle.

A stepping stone BACK maybe. The Garand and M14 are true piston/op-rod guns.

The elimination of moving parts attached to the barrel and fewer parts required for operation is the advantage of the AR DI system.

DI is hardly new technology, it's been around since 1901 with the French ENT Rossignol B1.

Read Stoner's observations on the DI system in his patent papers.

 

[eldbillbo]

A stepping stone BACK maybe. The Garand and M14 are true piston/op-rod guns.

The elimination of moving parts attached to the barrel and fewer parts required for operation is the advantage of the AR DI system.

DI is hardly new technology, it's been around since 1901 with the French ENT Rossignol B1.

Read Stoner's observations on the DI system in his patent papers.

you don't have to convince me man . thats why i like DIs Keep it simple. Keep it light (read all my post in this thread) . the least amount of parts the better IMO. there are +s and -s for each system and it all comes down to what gives one that warm and fuzzy feeling .

 

[Bob D]

My DI service M-16 works great, and is maintained meticulously. My DI AR works great and is maintained meticulously. My Piston AR works great, and is maintained meticulously, though maintenance is a lot easier. Since I bought it, it's been my favorite of four AR-15 rifles I've owned. It was also the most expensive and unique, mostly because of other features and manufacturing quality. So maybe it's my favorite because of those other qualities. Maybe it's my favorite because it's easy to clean. But I'm impressed with the notion of quality piston systems on the AR platform.

My favorite rifle ever was a newly refurbished M-16 A2 that I was issued during a fairly short stay at Fort Rucker, Alabama. I qualified expert, 40/40 targets at ranges from 50 to 300 meters twice in two weeks with single-hole 5-shot groups on the x when zeroing. It was the most consistent rifle I've ever fired, and I have no idea why. Just got one of the good ones.

A good rifle is a good rifle, it doesn't matter what equipment is in it. If it cycles reliably and shoots consistently it is a good rifle whether or not it's got a piston, a gas tube, a rotary magazine, an adjustable stock, or it's bright pink with a hello kitty logo on it.

Saying that a piston system is better than DI is just as silly as saying that DI is better than a piston system. My "go-to" right now happens to have a piston rod instead of a gas tube. I'd be just as happy with the other one, It's a great rifle as well.

 

[madcratebuilder]

Look at all the notorious AR torture tests that are documented online. 4-6K rounds fired from a DI gun without cleaning. I've read of one that's up near 15K rounds with just oil, wipe down and one part (bolt) replaced.

Has anyone done a torture test on a piston AR?

 

[Bob D]

Look at all the notorious AR torture tests that are documented online. 4-6K rounds fired from a DI gun without cleaning. I've read of one that's up near 15K rounds with just oil, wipe down and one part (bolt) replaced.

Has anyone done a torture test on a piston AR?

Here's one for Black Rifle Arms' conversion: AR-15 gas piston conversion torture testing - YouTube
Here's one for Adams arms (They say they put near 12000 rounds through it.) I Think this was done by a security contractor in Iraq or Afghanistan. Adams Arms/Mega Arms AR-15 Piston Field Test, Full Auto - YouTube

 

[andreys21]

AR15 Type Systems - Direct Impingement vs. Gas Piston - Pros/Cons

Gas Piston Cons:

Cannot be free floated thus potentially effecting accuracy particular at longer distances (beyond CQC and Self Defense ranges/uses) WRONG!!! LWRC International, LLC
The piston is causing more see saw effect which hammers the bolt more than the direct impingement which in turn can cause the carrier to tilted upward. WRONG!!! LWRC International, LLC
Some would argue it has more felt recoil. WRONG!!! THE DIFFERENCE IS IN THE RECOIL IMPULSE.
The AR platform was not designed/engineered for Gas Piston and has been retrofitted....the timing can be off enough to cause issues with a system not designed for it. WRONG!!!
Heavier WRONG!!! <broken link removed>
More expensive then Direct Impingement generally YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR!
Key is this system is NOT standardized and many manufacturers have even modified and changed their systems making them not universal, requiring non universal, specific, parts.
In an emergency, SHTF, or suvival situation one cannot as easily or readily canniblize parts from other ARs. Also one is limited on aftermarket parts for this system making availablity limited and prices higher. Some manufacturers/vendors change their parts two or more times. DO YOU HAVE SPARE PARTS FOR YOUR SHRUBMASTER? SO DO I.
Parts are more expensive and difficult to find WRONG!!! <broken link removed>

 

[andreys21]

Look at all the notorious AR torture tests that are documented online. 4-6K rounds fired from a DI gun without cleaning. I've read of one that's up near 15K rounds with just oil, wipe down and one part (bolt) replaced.

Has anyone done a torture test on a piston AR?

Try any of this with your Shrubmaster?

 

[pmboomer]

Different strokes. I've had two DI ARs and now have a gas piston AR. The first DI was from Olympic Arms (total POS) and the second was a Colt, which was a very nice rifle and never let me down. It did get really dirty from a day out shooting though.

Then I started reading about gas piston ARs and bought a new Ruger SR556FB. I have to say that I like the gas piston arrangement a lot. The rifle stays cool and the bolt carrier area stays totally clean. The Ruger is very accurate, but it is a bit heavier than my Colt was. More expensive too.

Some guys have run into problems with retro fitting gas piston kits on conventional ARs. I wouldn't know about that. My Ruger was designed and built at the factory as a gas gun. I've never had a single problem with it.

There are some guys who will get all hot and bothered about DI vs. Gas ARs. I don't bother with the crap. The only thing I can tell you is to read a lot and then buy what you like and can afford.

I have the same Ruger. Have not shot it yet. Look forward to the comparison to my Sig Sauer M500 Enhanced. The Ruger is heaver but manageable. I have added magpul sniper stock and pistol grip. Looks great and feels comfortable. Rugers have a great history on accuracy.

 

[DoubleTapDrew]

Look at all the notorious AR torture tests that are documented online. 4-6K rounds fired from a DI gun without cleaning. I've read of one that's up near 15K rounds with just oil, wipe down and one part (bolt) replaced.

Has anyone done a torture test on a piston AR?

The last update (year and a half ago) I found on the BCM Filthy-14 was 43,000 rounds and still going. 16" DI midlength AR

BCM Filthy 14 ?? - Page 3 - M4Carbine.net Forums

 

[mattdomes]

View attachment 37697

Thank you, I was going to attach this TNP video for those that are talking about a SHTF situation.

"The Perfect AR-15" by Nutnfancy - YouTube