Pistol Caliber versus Rifle caliber for carbines

[CamoDeafie]

People want try new things it would be interesting to see say a 45 long colt case necked down to .30 caliber and run in a m1 carbine type of action.. prob easier to use the .44mag necked down to .30 and rebarrel the Ruger .44 mag carbine with a .30 barrel ?

 

[Captain O]

How about a .45 Wildey Magnum necked down to accept a .308 bullet with a barrel engineered (read: a twist rate) for the .30 Carbine. Since the Wildey Magnum is making a comeback (yes, they're reintroducing the Wildey) this could have some promise.

 

[Jamie6.5]

I don't think it's a matter of fixing what ain't busted as much as it is a lot of enthusiasts would like to see a dedicated carbine round developed for, or along side of, a modern platform.

Currently the .30 Carbine cartridge is the only true carbine chambering, and it falls well short of the performance of the 7.9 Kurz (of StG44 fame) for instance. The only other currently viable options are pistol rounds, which fall short of the potential a true carbine round could exploit.



Consider the 7.9 Kurz's ballistics at well over 2,200FPS and more energy than the .44Mag at any given distance. That makes for a flat trajectory to well beyond 100 yds, with plenty of stopping power when it arrives. All in a rimless cartridge that's light and that's less bulky making it easier to carry.

I find the 9x39 Russian round intriguing as hell, but emphasis there has pretty much been concentrated on its subsonic capabilities, much like the 300BLK. And the 9x39 COAL is beyond that of a true carbine round.

But I know if there was a 4-5lb carbine along the lines of Kel-Tec's SU16c, chambered in the 7.9Kurz or modern equivalent, I'd be all over it.

 

[CamoDeafie]

I can't help but think the 7.62x39 AK/SKS ammo were inspired by the 7.9 Kurz?

 

[Jamie6.5]

I can't help but think the 7.62x39 AK/SKS ammo were inspired by the 7.9 Kurz?

As the story goes, that's what Kalashnikov/the Soviets were 'shooting' for. (pun intended)

But the Kurz is even shorter by a good margin, and gives up very little ballistically to the x39 Russian.
Shorter is important not only from a bulk standpoint, but also in terms of the cyclic rate it allows the weapon that is designed for it.
6MM of case length counts.

 

[The Heretic]

The only handgun/rifle cartridge that I am entirely sold on is the .22 rimfire.

Second, for special purposes, would be 5.7x28 with the correct ammo (not diluted), and even then I am not entirely sold on this in the handgun.

Right now, I am considering the .460 Mag as a candidate for a handgun/lever action. I just bought a .460V S&W and so far I like it, but it is big and heavy - almost 4 pounds. The lever action - a Big Horn Armory model 90 is nice, but expensive (starting at around $3K). The lever action would bring me close to the power of a .45-70 with the exception of the heaviest bullet loads in the latter, which would be okay for me as I don't intend to hunt elephant, cape buffalo or rhino.

As much as I like the idea of using the same ammo in handgun and rifle, I just don't think there is that much benefit to it. With the exception of the rimfire and the 5.7x28, I would prefer to have a rifle chambered for a rifle cartridge. The .460 Mag comes kind of close to this, but then the handgun is so big and heavy that if I am carrying a rifle anyway, I would just as soon carry a much lighter handgun if I am carrying both - my 329PD in .44 Mag is plenty powerful and versatile for any animal I am likely to run into in Oregon, it just won't reach out as far as a rifle, and yet, in a rifle, the .44 Mag isn't as good as the .30-30, except at ranges of less than 100 yards - its trajectory and velocity loss putting it at a disadvantage there.

Still, I may go ahead and get a lever action in .45 Colt - maybe a Henry with a short octagon barrel - just because I like the idea and because I like lever action guns (part of it was the westerns I watched as a kid, part of it was growing up with a lever action as the family deer gun) - and not because I really think the idea has all that much merit.

I am currently looking at how hot I could go with .45LC in a rifle like that - maybe cut back .454 Casull to .45 LC length, to get the better brass, and then load it up as hot as the action would take. But this would probably put me in the position of having a handgun that is more powerful than the rifle - unless I got with the BHA Model 90.

 

[CHLChris]

Unfortunately, the very best handgun&carbine rounds are rimmed revolver rounds (45LC, 357Mag, 44Mag, etc.). There are some rimless that work in both, but are best in the handgun they were developed for.

 

[Boats]

I will come out as an unabashed fan of at least one PCC—the Beretta CX4 Storm.

I don't have one of these instead of other long guns. I view it as another club in the bag. It has a role that cannot be filled by a handgun, a shotgun, or by a RCC. It's a eye-safe, ears safe, inside a structure PDW.

My purchase started as a range toy. I already have a PX4 9mm and M9. In minutes, without tools, I can use the mags from either pistol with two parts swaps.

Where the worm turned for me into taking the PCC seriously as a solid HD/SD choice was at a low light shoot where I had taken my CX4 for giggles. It was revelatory. The muzzle flash from the 20" and below 5.56 carbines was intense. Freaking intense. It didn't matter what shape or style of doohickey was on the end of the barrel, short of a suppressor, the orange burst was out there like a flare, getting ridiculously bad on AR pistols.

The 16" PCC? Nothing. The barrel length wrings out the gas behind the bullet until there's just a puff left from the muzzle. By then a 124gr pill is flying at .357 mag velocities. And I could still opt to SBR this thing, and mount a can, and still have better suppression than is possible in 5.56 without any hit in OAL or ballistics performance.

Then there was shootability. I am left handed. I have reversed the charging handle, the safety, mag release, and the ejection port for left handed operation at no additional cost. Not cheap or it is impractical to do that to an AR.

The balance of the CX4 is centered over the grip and my rig fully loaded still weighs in at 6 pounds. The weapon can easily be fired one handed or in strange orientations without difficulty.

I can fire this thing everywhere I shoot. It won't harm smash plates used in many indoor ranges as backstops. Ammo is one half to one fourth the cost of all of the rifle calibers I have. I wind up training with the PCC a lot more than with my bigger rifles, especially in the winter.

FINALLY, 9mm is fine out to 200m. The bullet drop, especially for 115 and 124 grain rounds, is trivially easy to dope. Zeroed at 100m, you hit barely high at 50m, aim at the top of the head at 200m you get shots dropped into the abdomen and pelvis of a man sized silhouette. Groups aren't anything to write home about out a 200, but minute of bad guy still works last I checked.

In my highly urban, low speed high drag world, the CX4 is something I am totally fine in relying upon in the 0-150m space. Beyond that range, if necessary, I have even better medicine than any 5.56 will bring.

 

[The Heretic]

Good points - but in my experience, muzzle flash has as much to do with the ammo powder used as the cartridge type.

 

[Boats]

Good points - but in my experience, muzzle flash has as much to do with the ammo powder used as the cartridge type.

True, but to have no muzzle flash with any load on my only PCC requires exactly nothing out of me.

In 5.56 it requires a cash outlay for load testing or reloading, or a tax stamp and a can if you want to ensure against a big blast flash and permanent hearing damage indoors.

I have seen $300 muffs fall off or get dislodged during 3gun. Auditory exclusion in a real shoot will likely see you through in the perception sense, but your hearing still takes the permanent hit.

 

[CamoDeafie]

Take it from a deaf guy here. Further hearing loss is never fun

 

[The Heretic]

Most military ammo (at least US, and probably NATO) has flash suppressant powder so most if not all of the testing is done for you.

As for noise suppression, that depends on the cartridge and the barrel length, in most cases, and you have a point there - one I know well enough since I wear hearing aids in part due to firearms. Just the same, I prefer rifle cartridges in rifles - I have yet to shoot anything above .22 Long from a non-suppressed rifle that is actually hearing safe - i.e., that doesn't damage a person's hearing to some degree. Which is why I wear hearing protection whenever I can. Given that, I doubt that I will be using firearms in a self-defense situation enough times to worry that much about my hearing - hopefully never.

 

[Boats]

Most military ammo (at least US, and probably NATO) has flash suppressant powder so most if not all of the testing is done for you.

As for noise suppression, that depends on the cartridge and the barrel length, in most cases, and you have a point there - one I know well enough since I wear hearing aids in part due to firearms. Just the same, I prefer rifle cartridges in rifles - I have yet to shoot anything above .22 Long from a non-suppressed rifle that is actually hearing safe - i.e., that doesn't damage a person's hearing to some degree. Which is why I wear hearing protection whenever I can. Given that, I doubt that I will be using firearms in a self-defense situation enough times to worry that much about my hearing - hopefully never.

Well, I am not trying to convert anyone. I am just stating that in my book, PCCs have a chapter.

 

[PaulB47]

The 357 Maximum is worth a look. Not many revolvers chambered for it, unfortunately, but it makes a credible rifle round. If I'm not mistaken, people do load .358 rifle bullets in it, so the poor BC problem is solved. But then those won't work in revolvers, too long? Maybe those .357 lever revolution bullets?

Of course .357 Mag will work as well. How about a .357 Mag revolver, a .357 Max rifle, and carry both .357 Mag and .357 Max ammo? Partial interchangeability...

 

[Ownerus]

Slightly off topic but what about the carbine conversions like the MecTec? Granted, taking your pistol apart to turn it in to a carbine isn't THAT appealing vs. having a stand alone carbine in addition to your handgun. Still, as an option, I find the concept a little appealing. Some things could be done to make it more versatile that aren't currently being done like make a 9mm that could fire .357 when in carbine form etc. Just another pipe dream

 

[Nick Burkhardt]

Extar C9


or the Extar EXP-9

 

[The Heretic]

For me, it comes down to effectiveness for a given amount of weight.

If you are going to carry a rifle, then rifle ammo will be a lot more effective than any pistol ammo simply due to it being more powerful.

For home defense, it depends on the scenario, but if you are defending yourself against an intruder, then CQB tactics come into play, and a handgun might be called for, or a SBS/SBR or a bullpup - either of which are about the same or better with regards to maneuvering in close quarters.

Myself, I would prefer a handgun/bullpup within a structure. YMMV.

 

[CamoDeafie]

And that's the main reason I like places with a very open floor plan, other than the usual privacy walls and closets.

 

[H2O MAN]

FINALLY, 9mm is fine out to 200m. The bullet drop, especially for 115 and 124 grain rounds, is trivially easy to dope. Zeroed at 100m, you hit barely high at 50m, aim at the top of the head at 200m you get shots dropped into the abdomen and pelvis of a man sized silhouette. Groups aren't anything to write home about out a 200, but minute of bad guy still works last I checked.

I agree.
Mine accepts reliable 33 round Glock 'happy sticks' loaded with 115, 124, 135, and 147.

 

[Medic!]

For me, it comes down to effectiveness for a given amount of weight.

If you are going to carry a rifle, then rifle ammo will be a lot more effective than any pistol ammo simply due to it being more powerful.

For home defense, it depends on the scenario, but if you are defending yourself against an intruder, then CQB tactics come into play, and a handgun might be called for, or a SBS/SBR or a bullpup - either of which are about the same or better with regards to maneuvering in close quarters.

Myself, I would prefer a handgun/bullpup within a structure. YMMV.

I think the same way.

A 5.56 will do more damage than a 9mm.
Yet they both weigh about 2.6 pounds per 100 rounds.